Wednesday, October 18, 2006

Iraqi Bloggers Discuss Lancet Study, Iraq The Model

Debate summarized by Konfused Kid


In a first-of-its-kind event, a sizable number of Iraqi bloggers sat down together and discussed the recent Lancet study, which states that more than 650,000 Iraqis have died as a result of the U.S. invasion and its ensuing chaos.

However, the event was not a direct discussion of the study itself, what caused the commotion was an especially volatile post of prominent Iraqi blogger IRAQ THE MODEL in response to the Lancet study. ITM called the Lancet: [a bunch of] lies, I'm talking here about those researchers who used the transparency and open doors of the new Iraq to come and count the drops of blood we shed. when they did not find the death they wanted to see on the ground, they faked it on paper! This is an insult to every man, woman and child who lost their lives.Let those fools know that nothing will stop us from walking this road and nothing will stop our friends and allies from helping us reach safe shores."
The discussion started when furious blogger Konfused Kid sent a mass e-mail to a sizable group of Iraqi bloggers, demanding that they give their opinions about the general viewpoint and direction of Iraq The Model in general, outlined in this post. Kid said that: "they [ITM] are just an inbred propaganda machine, if this is not crossing the line, then I don't know what is....", Kid accused Iraq The Model for being "an example of the mentality that currently prevails the Green Zone, nervous Iraqis who just want to make a few bucks by catering to an audience and telling them what they want to hear"

He also posted a more expanded reponse on his blog.
His letter was met by a series of emails, carrying mixed responses. Most of which however, seemed to agree, with various degrees of enthusiasm:

Miraj said that: "he wants to follow other Iraqi bloggers to US and what is better than sucking up to the Americans."

Baghdad Treasue: "I wish I could fly from America back to Iraq just to show him what being a tool to the white house means. He is just a shame."

El Delilah : "He could have made things simple just by posting a picture of himself licking a pair of bloody-muddy timberlands shiny."

El Delilah also posted a vicious criticism of ITM on her own blog


TRUTH ABOUT IRAQIS:
"Traitors like ITM get a voice because people like us lose ours in the squabbling. this is not about democracy and it is not about freedom of speech. Look up social responsibility theory in mass communications. When someone publishes something that does the mass public harm then that person has forfeited the right to freedom of speech."

He also have written a short post about the Lancet study

IRAQI SCREEN: "I am sure they are dying for an asylum in USA to be close to their dear Bush. Did they ever read about Haditha masscre, Ishaqi and Falluja?"
KHALID JARRAR: "Being a traitor is not an allowed option, and should not be legitimized by ranting about freedom of speech, I swear reading them is just like reading a white house statements."
NAJMA: "ITM makes most of us angry, yet most of the people who read' em almost worship their opinions"
SALAM ADIL: My main point was that they are in danger of growing up to be like the Baathist apologist that they so despise. Spinning wild stories just to make their supporters feel good.

Salam Adil also wrote a feature about all the Iraqi blog posts about the Lancet survery on his regular GlobalVoices feature, including some posts by fellow bloggers who did not contribute to this discussion.

24 STEPS TO LIBERTY: "You [ITM] said it is a shame to have such a study? A shame to count the sacrifices Iraqis have to make along the way to a better future? Why have you counted Saddam's victims then? Why you, and your kind of anti-rational dialogue people, have endless statistics numbering Saddam's horrible crimes? Isn't a shame?"

ANARKI13: "ITM should pick their fights a bit better, and one should never argue with mathematics.this was not their most inflammatory post, but it does hit on some really strained nerves"

MAJED: "this [post] is sick! I disagree with the idea that this nonsense could be marked as freedom of speech"

LORD: "we must not let people like ITM and other opologists have thier way. we must realize the truth, we must uncover thier lies, we must uncover the crimes thier masters had done to our people. everybody seemd to forget about what this study was really about, which is humane beings."

IRAQI SIGNOR: "I didn't quite understand what was so bad about it. However, afte reading between the lines, which I should have done from the beginning, I saw the underlying message of blunt support for the occupation of Iraq. How shameful."

Iraqi Signor also published a long post about the study on his own blog


RAED JARRAR: "I wonder what readers will think of the fact that ITM sounds like a holocaust denier. After all, counting the holocaust casualties was based on a similar methodology to that used by this latest Iraq casualties report."

WHITE ROSE: "I think [they] seem to be living on a different planet not to notice the killings, disappearances, kidnappings, bodies burnt & disposed of in rivers or thrown collectively in other areas and garbage dumps, this is not what a supposed "liberated country" should be going through. We the "liberated" must not be dying this way anymore, since Saddam, the cause of all our misery & violent deaths, is not an issue anymore. "


IRAQI THOUGHTS "One has to just look at the comments section of ITM and see why they write the way they do.... its a blog written to be read for non-Iraqis, I am proud to say my blog was removed from their links section, a lot of us USED to read ITM, but its bull***t now, lets stop hating on them, Just stop reading it if you want"

however, some people did not voice their objection quite as soundly:

IHATH : "I think there are enough people beating up on each other in Iraq without the need of us adding to it. I myself stopped reading ITM long time ago, I can predict what theywill say on any issue before going to their blog. Enough said."

She also wrote a characterisitcally strange post on her personal blog

HALA_S: "I did not like ITM post at all, I have to agree with you all that it was too much to take.However ITM has a lot of virtues as well. They worked hard and constantly reported on daily issues in Iraq for a long time. Probably they are the onlyones who never took a break, also they never expressed any secterian remark which is something most of us do."

NEUROTIC WIFE: I too was very pained when I read ITM's post regarding their dispute of Iraqi killings. It did boil my blood , but I cant say that I dislike ITM, cuz I dont. They have interesting point of views, and sometimes they are very informative."
She also wrote a post on her personal blog .

and ZAPPY: "a blog belongs to its owner, he can say whatever he likes, if hes got a comment link then comment, else leave the matter alone. don't take this thing too personal, you disagreed with the ITM's, so do I and a number of other bloggers, so what?"

NABIL: "What is this all about? Why don't u leave the guy alone, he's nuts anyway..."



Several high-profile bloggers also participated in the discussion, godfather of Iraqi blogs SALAM PAX expressed interest in writing something in response to the ITM, but did not add further to the point, while ZEYAD, who had earlier written about the study, also provided comments but they were not related to the debate directly, while RIVERBEND watched the debate silently, but perhaps as an indirect response she decided to break her 2 and a half months hiatus to post about the study.
Fellow bloggers MIXMAX and FAYROUZ, did not participate directly in the debate, but have posted about the study on their own respective blogs.


There were, however, a few who had an entirely different opinion:

SOONI: "ITM is one of the most respectable Iraqi blogs, although I disagree with them in what they say sometimes. The problem is never been with the American presence in Iraq the real problem is with Iraqis themselves they keep looking for new ways and reasons to kill each other"

IRAQ PUNDIT : "I was taken aback by ITM's posting. I believe they are nice guys who have somehow allowed themselves to write something bizarre."

Iraq Pundit also wrote an issue about the study and the debate on his own blog.

NIBRAAS KAZIMI: "ITM is a true patriotic blog"

NO PAIN NO GAIN: " I believe they mean that [the deaths] are incomparable to the death that Saddam killed, the [current] fear and these deaths that are occurring everyday has [a chance of a positive] outcome. I believe the ITM are trying to look at the bright side of matters in Iraq. They want to see that they are still fighting for a good hope...a hope that is fading among Iraqis and they dont want to let that go."

While knowning that this debate was taking place, IRAQ THE MODEL moderators have not responded in any direct way, they simply removed Konfused Kid's name from their blog-index and they posted something that may be an implicit reply that supplemented their Lancet post. They followed that by removing names of some other bloggers who participated in the debate.

---------------------
FOOTNOTE BY KID: I am really proud of all that has happened, this is the first time something of this magnitude has happened, I hope this would be the start of a more active Iraqi blogger community, something which a lot of people has been voicing need for since a long time.

181 comments:

Anonymous said...

Well done Iraqis! Best of luck with your truly inspirational writing!

neurotic_wife said...

Well done AK, and thanx alot for all your efforts. This takes loads of time and effort, and I have to say, youve done an excellent job, even though we dont agree at times but still what youve done is great. Thanx again...

white rose said...

good job bro :)

Jeffrey said...

Kid,

This is the funniest shit I've ever heard. The overwhelming majority of deaths in Iraq are due to Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence. The ITM brothers argue that the figure of 650,000 deaths due to mainly Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence is exaggerated and inflated. Then you and a bunch of nitwits raise your voices, "No, we REALLY ARE BLOODTHIRSTY KILLERS! We LOVE killing each other! 650,000?! Pshaw! We can do better than that! Give us another couple years and there will be fewer A-Rabs than Kurds in Iraq!"

You gotta love Iraqis and the issues they'll fight for!

*

Anonymous said...

Oh Jeffrey,
I haven't seen anyone more stupid... than you!

Jeffrey said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Treasure of Baghdad said...

Kid,
First of all, THANK YOU for all the effort and the good job. You made our voices unite and be heard in one entry and debate.

Secondly, I noticed that Jeffrey is alive! Dude! Where have you been hiding? for sometime i thought you were one of the two victims who died in the helicopter crash that happened few weeks ago in Manhattan!

And oh Jeffrey wait! I forgot!! All Iraqi bloggers are wrong but the ITM brothers are right! My a**.

Anonymous said...

I am really proud of all that has happened, this is the first time something of this magnitude has happened,

Huh? Gathering Iraqis opinions against Iraqis makes you proud? Well then, I'll never get it. I hope another moment of magnitude will take place one day in Iraq. My definition of magnitude is somehow different.

Don Cox said...

How many Iraqi bloggers have been killed?

miraj said...

Thanks Kid for the great job!

Jeffrey said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
miraj said...

Agool,walla a7san shee ma7ad yjaweb hatha al kideesh Jeffery.

Khili emoot b7asrata.

Pleaseee :)

Anonymous said...

Jeffrey,

What miraj said roughly translates as "better leave that animal Jeffrey alone and not respond to him"

Anonymous said...


The ITM brothers suggest that, contrary to the tendentious Lancet report, Iraqis are not bloodthirsty. For this claim the brothers are clubbed on the head as "unpatriotic."


What the brothers did was to dismiss it out of hand, calling the survey lies, and the authors bloodthirsty sadists and going off into irrelevant rants. At no point did they give even one sensible criticism.

Any decent Iraqi, any decent HUMAN being, would be concerned about the survey. You may disagree and present rational counter-arguments -- thats what Zeyad did. But ITM did nothing of the sort. Nor did ITM even bother to present any sort of counter-number.

So yes, ITM may or may not be unpatriotic, but they're pathetic excuses for human beings, just like Jeffrey, for whom half a million deaths is just a statistic.

Anonymous said...

I think Baghdad treasure had it right -- ITM has essentially become an echo chamber for the wingnuts, who hear exatly what they want to hear there.

Jeffrey said...

Miraj,

You wrote:

A dead body of a young man was discovered not far from my house. The construction workers in our neighbor’s house saw it and told us about it. No one dared to go near the body for different reasons, fearing of losing any evidence that might lead to the killer is definitely not one of them. An explosive charge could be under or inside that body and someone could activate it from distance when people gather up near it. We called the police. They came and took the body and as nothing happened there.
As zillions of other murders and bombing, we won’t know what really happened there.
People going to (or coming from) Karbala in buses were shot dead in different areas.
A rocket fell on a house in Dora, one of the many regions in Baghdad nominated to be the next Falujah.
Nothing much really


Well, maybe Iraqis really are bloodthirsty by nature.

Okay, I'm joining the anti-ITM group now. To suggest that Iraqis don't enjoy killing each other is without question "unpatriotic."

Oh, by the way, I read some of your blog and thought it was pretty good.

*

Lynnette in Minnesota said...

Interesting round up of opinions. Most not surprising at all.

I liked this one:

"The problem is never been with the American presence in Iraq the real problem is with Iraqis themselves they keep looking for new ways and reasons to kill each other" Sooni

Always new that guy was smart.

Jeffrey said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Congrats on the new start :)

Konfused Kid said...

Jeffrey,

I have nothing to say to people like you, I simply started a debate and got positive and negative answers, I displayed them all and did not remove any of them, including the ones that supported ITM. People who follow you know what you are and what do you stand for.

Konfused Kid said...

Anon @ 9:20 PM

I am proud not because I ganged up on an Iraqi, if I was like that, I'd be interested in only displaying things that are biased to my point, which if you look at that post, it is not - I am proud of the fact that I started something between the IRaqi blogger community, future discussions may not be related to any blog or policy in particular. Please differentiate.

Matt said...

Thanks for the varying viewpoints, Kid. What do you personally think of the report? Stay safe and I'll see you 'round!

annie said...

what an incredible resource to have all these links to iraqi bloggers, many i have not heard of!

it is so amazing to hear you all, thank you kid. thank you for being you, for being in baghdad during this painful time, for saying what needed to be said, and offering your blog for all the voices of your comrades.

more than anything, when i heard the results, this overwhelming sadness for lives that are gone to us forever. every single soul, every life has value. to deny a death is to deny a life. i think the impact of the study, whether or not completely accurate, if it opens our eyes, the worlds eyes, and our conscious to the level of destruction going on, to the loss of our cradle of civilization...

oh please i pray this madness ends. the first thing i did was pray. let us never forget them even if we don't know their name, we acknowledge their death, and their life.

thank you kid, and every blogger who spoke your mind.

annie said...

oops sorry, how embarrassing. that was supposed to read, 'of' the loss 'to' our cradle, OF COURSE!

miraj said...

Jeffrey,

What miraj said roughly translates as "better leave that animal Jeffrey alone and not respond to him"

Actually anonymous, kideesh in Iraqi slang means naive or stupid. But thanks anyway.

Jeffrey said...

Wow, Kid, you really are a punk, aren't you. You deleted some of my funniest and most deadly-accurate comments.

Aw hell, man!

It's almost like you don't want me to post here, but I KNOW it couldn't be that.

Hee hee.

C'mon, Kid, give us a KISS.

*

David said...

Hello Konfused Kid, Anarki said to check you out and the ITM post. Mel talks about you too, but only good things (btw, I like fries on my burgers too!). :)

About all this ITM commotion, my first impression when I saw ITM's blog was that it looked really slick, like it has a professional staff producing it. I am wondering, have any Iraqi bloggers you know ever met ITM? Has anyone ever chatted with or text messaged ITM? I am wondering if ITM is a production of the American CIA or a U.S. Army Psyops unit. Anyway, I thought the ITM post was really a huge load of manure! Congrats to you for bringing together so many Iraqi bloggers on this issue!

Fern R said...

What do you have to say now that it appears that ITM was right to criticize the Lancet Study?

It now appears that they didn't survey enough people from enough different areas. For example, check out this article in the Wall Street Journal. Steven Moore, the author of that article, pretty clearly explains how the Lancet study grossly undersampled Iraqis. The Lancet study only used 47 cluster points for their sample of 1,849 interviews. As a comparison, when the United Nations did a similar survey of Iraq in 2004, they used 2,200 cluster points for a total sample of 21,688. The Lancet study isn't even in the same ballpark as the UN study.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that a horrendous thing has happened in Iraq. I just think it is important that everyone is talking about the facts and not using bad science to back up exagerations of the truth.

khalid jarrar said...

tsk tsk tsk..
Jeffo...why aren't you trolling in my blog since a long time?
oh wait, let me remember, cause you are banned there till you apologize for trolling and commit publically to be a little nice boy.

Kid, you might wanna try it!
dont allow anyone to take readers to side tracks and forget your post, whenever you see jeff, use that beautiful orange delete button! till he promises to be nice and polite and stop troling.

just a though! :)

Konfused Kid said...

Jeffrey,

Vous pouvez smoochez mon derriere hairee magnifique.

Khalid,

Don't wanna censor him too much. I like him a lot actually, it's shining proof that ITM must know that they r on the wrong track when they win the support of such Iraqi-hating crowd as this friendly little fella, give us a hug little fella, btw, BT knows where you live, so take care. :)

Zeyad said...

Nice work putting this all together.

I like the new logo. You should keep this one.

Katrin said...

Konfused Kid,

sorry, anon 9:20 was me.

I am proud not because I ganged up on an Iraqi, if I was like that, I'd be interested in only displaying things that are biased to my point,

You qualified the few reactions that don't agree with your point as 'not so sound', right?

I'm not so convinced about the soundness of your gathering voices that - like it or not - will lead to a withdrawal of US troops. Because this will be the consequence of the whole affair.

And don't tell me, you're not aware of the political consequences this unique incident will have. Your comment section is flooded with people who jubilate. You know exactly what they are aiming at and they will use you and your blogosphere disrespecting the fact, that you once stated you don't want the US to withdraw.

You even convinced me in a way. I won't defend Iraq against those who firmly believe that ME countries don't want and cannot have democracy any more. Those who say, you need strong leaders instead. The von Sponecks and Annans who are interested in making business. The French and Russians who want to have back their oil contracts with Saddam.

Let them all have it, I won't argue anymore. I can't, with just three brothers that are being isolated by the rest of you.

I think about a new modell now: an independent Kurdistan that will prove, that there actually are people in ME who love freedom and democracy. We should concentrate our energy on protecting these people and let the rest have what they just firmly voiced: their way.

MixMax said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
MixMax said...

I find it excellent what Kid did by gathering all Bloggers in the way he did, and better that he categorized each according to its stand. I appreciate that, and it serves the purpose that Iraqis are united, even if some don't agree on one issue.


Keep the great work, Kid :)


Anonymous said...
Huh? Gathering Iraqis opinions against Iraqis makes you proud? Well then, I'll never get it. I hope another moment of magnitude will take place one day in Iraq. My definition of magnitude is somehow different


Why shouldn't he be proud? Because he disclosed those who love his country and those who benefit from the disaster put upon the head of its people?
You will never get it, maybe because you are not used to see such a magnitude i.e. Iraqis united in giving different opinions and being civilized in debate?


Fern R said...
What do you have to say now that it appears that ITM was right to criticize the Lancet Study?

ITM was right to critize the study? with what? with their claim that:
"To me their motives are clear; all they want is to prove that our struggle for freedom was the wrong thing to do"?? Or
"Behind every drop of blood is a noble story of sacrifice for a just cause that is struggling for living safe in freedom and prosperity." or
"Let those fools know that nothing will stop us from walking this road and nothing will stop our friends and allies from helping us reach safe shores."


This is what ITM is aiming for, war propaganda, that even ordinary Americans who really understand the situation are sick of hearing it everyday and in every speech on the media.
This is the insult to the Iraqi people, this is what is considered a humiliation towards the men and women died without any reason but because there are Christian, Muslim and Jews extremists fighting each other and happen to be that Iraqi civilians are caught in the middle.

Katrin said...
I think about a new modell now: an independent Kurdistan that will prove, that there actually are people in ME who love freedom and democracy. We should concentrate our energy on protecting these people and let the rest have what they just firmly voiced: their way.


Why are you pissed off? Because you discovered that in fact there are Iraqi people – other than the current government in Iraq – capable of handling things, their own way?

You said I'm not so convinced about the soundness of your gathering voices that - like it or not - will lead to a withdrawal of US troops. Because this will be the consequence of the whole affair.

The US troops do not need any political consequences such as this affair to withdraw, don’t you listen to the news? They are preparing to leave: First, James Baker (very close to the Bush family and a big supporter of the 1991 and 2003 wars) presented his recommendations to find a solution for the US in Iraq: one of them is a fully withdraw from Iraq because the US presence is part of the problem, and operate from abroad on combating those terrorists. Donald Rumsfeld said today that the US army remains very strong but victory will only be achieved politically, and that The United States should be able to reduce forces in Iraq in coming months if America does a good job of training and equipping Iraqi forces. Above all, today, Bush himself resembled Iraq with Vietnam, such an announcement is considered very critical.

The whole world is talking about the failure in the U.S. strategy in Iraq. Mind you, I am like Kid, I am not supporter of the U.S. withdraw, especially with the current situation, but the way you look at it is when you diagnose certain part is considered as part of the problem, then you have to make other measures in order to solve the situation. However, the U.S. administration does not have a solution, because from the past three years it proved that no plan for future of Iraq in the post-Saddam era did exist.

MixMax said...

The Iraqis should thank you for the offer or shall I call it suggestion to support only the Kurds in order to create more division among people from the same country!!

All this because there are voices disagree with yours?

Drima @ The Sudanese Thinker said...

Excellent round up bro. That was great!

Jeffrey said...

In the U.S. our population is steadily increasing -- over 300 million this week -- and our economy is booming -- over 12,000 at the NYSE. A game seven tonight here in NYC and college football is in full swing. Life is good.

Iraq?

Hey, what's been going on there?

*

miraj said...

Hey, what's been going on there?

67 Americans soliders have been killed since the begining of October! That's what's going on here.

I could understand your hatered to us but to your own people?!!! that's quite new.

Kid, allah yekhalik leesh metmine3 alli ma3andhom ara2 mufeeda?

Katrin said...

Mixmax,


All this because there are voices disagree with yours?
1. I am not pissed off.
2. I always said, if Iraq really wants the US to withdraw, then let them do it.
3. How often shall I repeat that I am into this discussion because I do care?
4. Maybe we have a misunderstanding about the time of withdrawal?

Iraq elected a government, so pardon me, I am also listening to what this government is saying. And I'm listening to all of you.

Now you and Kid tell me, you don't want the US to withdraw. On the other hand you isolate ITM for critisising a study that clearly aims at withdrawing as soon as possible. You don't isolate those within your group who are openly Anti-American.

Maybe you can tell me, what it is that you really want. Where are you heading at?

And before blaming me for 'dividing' Iraq - show me where the Kurds' voices in your recent gathering can be found. And please don't blame me for asking, I was never confronted with this sectarian thing at ITM's place. That stuff I learned in your blogs and the Lebanese ones.

I've been going through the website of Kurdish regions' government these days and could find no single hint against the US. They've been friends with the US for ten years now and their story seems to be quite successfull.

I'm listening to them and they lifted their own flag recently, if I remember well. So why should I throw them into a pot, they only want to belong to under certain circumstances?

annie said...

woa kid, rad new pic. you lookin hotter w/each update!

Lynnette in Minnesota said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Lynnette in Minnesota said...

That deletion was me, I just wanted to change a word in this comment.

The US troops do not need any political consequences such as this affair to withdraw... Mixmax

You are correct. The troops will be withdrawn if the American people lose faith in the people of Iraq. And then Iraq will be a two paragraph article in the back of our newspapers.

This is what ITM is fighting to prevent. Good or bad, right or wrong. You choose, but it is the truth. *shrug*

Jeffrey said...

Miraj,

I like Iraqis, but the Arab Iraqis are twisted in the head. One thing I've learned over the last three years is that Saddam Hussein is a pure and representative product of Iraqi tribal culture. I am not surprised that the savage killing of clan against clan and sect against sect contiunes there. While the scale of killing is breathtaking, it's nothing new if one looks at the history of Iraq -- Zeyad, by the way, wrote the definitive six-part account of Iraqi tribal bloody-mindedness. Iraqis need to keep killing each other until they get it out of their system. Good luck with that form of therapy.

Here in the US our universities and businesses keep humming along. For the last two hundred years we have gone to the polls every four years to elect a president as our democracy rolls along. No dictators or kings for us.

Back in 1969 while Muslim scholars were squinting up into the sky and trying to decide when the new moon was going to appear for Ramadam, we Americans used our intelligence and drive and engineering skills to take a spaceship to the moon and WALK on it. Americans are only just beginning to flex our muscles. You'll see.

*

annie said...

hmm, i read riverbend last night. my favorite blogger was very moved. it is always easier screeming about who's right or wrong than saying goodbye to those lost in this genocide.

silly little ferngirlie comes on to direct us to some unscientific person telling us the scientists are unscientific!

i guess you did good kid, because the trolls are out in full force. (trolljeffery bloviating about a man on the moon tho more and more americans every year are doubting that scenario ha!) the more the deniers deny the more people who hear about everyone who's died.

let us honor so they may never be forgotten. so those left behind will never forget the suffering empire and greed brings.

Jeffrey said...

Here's an old blog entry with all the links to Zeyad's examination of the history of Iraq's tribal culture (scroll down).

Tribe or Party?

*

Jeffrey said...

Annie,

We went the the moon SIX times, rode a dunebuggy on it, and even played golf there. I'm hoping we can get Tiger to tee off from the Lake of Tranquillity.

Smirk

*

annie said...

Iraq will be a two paragraph article in the back of our newspapers.

somehow i think iraqi's would much prefer this to having an occupation. besides, everyone knows no one informed gets their news from papers anymore, people who are informed link to the hot stories, so it doesn't even matter what page they are on!

The troops will be withdrawn if the American people lose faith in the people of Iraq.

oh yeah, lie we invaded because we had faith in iraqi's. we had so much faith we decided to bomd the fuck out of the whole friggin infrastucture including schools, gov buildings, everythigng! faith and occupation go hand in hand!

the trollies are spillin the beans we may be having some withdrawls because the big oil deals around the bend in december and the coup is on the way!!!

they don't have to drumbeat for democracy anymore! watch the baker/cheneyco all spin zone as they wind their way around explanations. like americans 'lack of faith'

kid, rethink these trolls. is it worth it?

Jeffrey said...

Annie,

You wrote "iraqi's." The plural form is "iraqis." The use of an apostrophe here is just one more sign of your sloppy writing and thinking.

You're in my crosshairs, so step softly, sweetie.

*

Common Sense said...

To all Iraqi’s with in the vast blogosphere I think we all owe ITM a very big apologie… Why? Well there is a long and a short answer, I would like to stick with common since and pick the short one.

“A middle school girl can blow Johns Hopkins Study out of the water…”

Explanation why:

The study has been released by the Lancet medical journal estimating over 650,000 excess deaths in Iraq. The Iraqi mortality estimates published in the Lancet in October 2006 imply, among other things, that:
1. On average, a thousand Iraqis have been violently killed every single day in the first half of 2006, with less than a tenth of them being noticed by any public surveillance mechanisms;
2. Some 800,000 or more Iraqis suffered blast wounds and other serious conflict-related injuries in the past two years, but less than a tenth of them received any kind of hospital treatment;
3. Over 7% of the entire adult male population of Iraq has already been killed in violence, with no less than 10% in the worst affected areas covering most of central Iraq;
4. Half a million death certificates were received by families which were never officially recorded as having been issued;
5. The Coalition has killed far more Iraqis in the last year than in earlier years containing the initial massive "Shock and Awe" invasion and the major assaults on Falluja.
If these assertions are true, they further imply:
• incompetence and/or fraud on a truly massive scale by Iraqi officials in hospitals and ministries, on a local, regional and national level, perfectly coordinated from the moment the occupation began;
• bizarre and self-destructive behaviour on the part of all but a small minority of 800,000 injured, mostly non-combatant, Iraqis;
• the utter failure of local or external agencies to notice and respond to a decimation of the adult male population in key urban areas;
• an abject failure of the media, Iraqi as well as international, to observe that Coalition-caused events of the scale they reported during the three-week invasion in 2003 have been occurring every month for over a year.

Could five such shocking implications be true? If they were true, they would need to be the result of a combination of the following factors:
• incompetence and/or fraud on a truly massive scale by Iraqi officials in hospitals and ministries, on a local, regional and national level, perfectly coordinated from the moment the occupation began;
• bizarre and self-destructive behaviour on the part of all but a small minority of 800,000 injured, mostly non-combatant, Iraqis;
• the utter failure of local or external agencies to notice and respond to a decimation of the adult male population in key urban areas;
• an abject failure of the media, Iraqi as well as international, to observe that Coalition-caused events of the scale they reported during the three-week invasion in 2003 have been occurring every month for over a year.
We would hope that, before accepting such extreme notions, serious consideration is given to the possibility that the population estimates derived from the Lancet study are flawed. The most likely source of such a flaw is some bias in the sampling methodology such that violent deaths were vastly over-represented in the sample. The precise potential nature of such bias is not clear at this point (it could, for example, involve problems in the application of a statistical method originally designed for studying the spread of disease in a population to direct and ongoing violence-related phenomena). But to dismiss the possibility of such bias out of hand is surely both irresponsible and unwise.
All that has been firmly documented as a result of the Lancet study is that some 300 post-invasion violent deaths occurred among the members of the households interviewed. This information, and the demographic and causative breakdowns presented in the study, are significant additions to the detailed knowledge that is painstakingly being accumulated about the individual victims of this conflict, and the tragedies that have befallen them. These 300 may be added to the roster of some 50,000 others for whom this level of detailed knowledge is available. In some - but still far too few - cases we know the name, ages, occupation, and exact circumstances of death. Information presented at this level of detail is the only way to arrive at once-for-all certainty, in a way that does justice to the victims, honors their memory, and provides the closure that only a full list, or census, can do satisfactorily.

Let’s apply this math to the United States.


In place of Baghdad we will use Baltimore City, around 263 murders in 2005….

Using the math used by JHU there would be well over 10,000,000 murders in the United Stated in 2005….

The real answer is 16,692….

To believe that you can count bodies with out counting bodies isn’t scientific it doesn’t meet the scientific standard of proof.

Calling ITM a traitor for using common sense isnt wise, Johns Hopkins may be famous for its doctors, Engineers, however its also famous for its Liberal slant.

If I was an Iraqi Blogger I would care less what JHU or America’s numbers are, you are a FREE society, if you want to find the real number go out and count them your selves don’t rely on politically driven propaganda.

You own Government gives a round about number of 30000 to 40000… maybe 50000
These are also the numbers of every other study ever made


So let’s all calm down and think clearly… You’re free to say anything now, however it is up to you and you alone on how smart, stupid, clever, funny, or idiotic you sound…

MixMax said...

Katrin,
I am glad that you are not pissed off! Allow me please to comment on your reply regarding my comments, because if there is any misunderstanding, I am serious about and more than happy to clear it up

First and most important, I am not anti-American, otherwise I won’t have many American friends like any other nationality, and I am proud of that. I am an anti U.S. government policies in regards to many issues (interior and foreign), like any person on this planet. I am sure that you also have your say about certain measures you might not agree with about some government officials in a country.

I always said, if Iraq really wants the US to withdraw, then let them do it.
Do you mean the current Iraqi government do that and ask the U.S. troops to leave? If this what you mean then it is very difficult, if not impossible, simply because this government is not been able to do anything right, how do you want it then to take such a decision like that? Besides, the whole world knows that the current Iraqi government is not fully in control of the country, it is the U.S.

How often shall I repeat that I am into this discussion because I do care?
And I appreciate your concern, and it is noticeable, something I truly admire.

Maybe we have a misunderstanding about the time of withdrawal?
Yes, we might

Now you and Kid tell me, you don't want the US to withdraw. On the other hand you isolate ITM for critisising a study that clearly aims at withdrawing as soon as possible.

I personally not attempting to isolate anyone, but in the case of ITM please read my previous comments on why would I disagree on what they said.

Katrin, you have to understand that more than 12 years gap between the Kurds and the rest of Iraq due to the protection of the international community – not the dominance of the international community. If we take a closer look to Kurdistan I personally doubt democracy exists in these areas, lets rather use another term: say secured areas i.e. security turbulence is almost to zero, but that did not come on the following night. People over there fought each other for years, and some of them sided suddenly with the butcher of Iraq for some time. At the end the main two factions decided to unite against extremism and fight Ansar Al Islam. The rest is history… in fact I should not go deep into this subject because unintentionally diverting from the main issue.
But as I mentioned above, the Kurds did suffer and struggled enough until they reached the level where you and many others consider their region as the perfect example for democracy. We cannot make a comparison between Iraq’s Kurdistan and the rest of the country when a dictator used to control one region and did not have the same control on the other, and this created this 12 years gap I was talking about.

Konfused Kid said...

Jeffrey.

BT just emailed me, he's got your exact coordinates.

Katrin.

You talk about Kurds as if they were just another 'sect'. Your understanding of the Iraqi political scene is very sketchy, because I thik you genuinely care, not unlike some people here, I'm gonna try and explain:

I am all for freedom and democracy, but you should understand that Western Democracy is not universal, democracy must be applied to each country accordingly depending on its understanding and culture. and the way ITM is going about it will make you lose whatever support you get from Iraqis, who are the second side of the equation. This form of thinking completely ignores Iraqi viewpoints out of the equation and focuses on rallying support for American presence in America, which is already waning. You have to understand that if you want Iraqis to support, you have to understand what they want. We do not want to be 'eternally grateful' or none of that, that's why guys like Ahmed al-Chalabi are the most hated form of creations in Iraq. We want somebody to tell as it is. We're only in it because there is a slim chance that something good that comes ouf of that bargain. We don't want to kill each other all day and then come home and beat our wives, we got friends, children, hospitals, wives....please understand that my motivation was not political by nature, but I just wanted the truth. and if that hurts, I am sorry.

as for Kurdistan, Kurdistan is a completely different culture who always sought to be a nation. They have different language, traditions, and customs - there is no rivalry in Kurdistan, it is a homogeneous culture. Do not keep pointing out as a stable area, and besides, nobody knows when Turkey, Iran and Syria will start worrying about their minority Kurdish population.

Monica said...

I'm glad to see dialogue amongst the Iraqi bloggers as well. I hope it will continue and will produce something positive for Iraq.

I don't understand the animosity towards ITM, especially considering the study has been discredited. Has there been any change of attitued towards ITM since the study was discredited or does that not make any difference?

Why is it that a good deal of Iraqi bloggers don't like ITM? Is that something you explain to me? Are they too pro-American? Is that an automatic no-no?

I'm sincere in my questions. I'm not looking for a blog fight.

Thanks

Jeffrey said...

Kid,

Heh heh. That's funny. Hey man, the door is always open.

BT, take the train to NY this afternoon. Mets and Cardinals tonight!

Just bring a six-pack of Coronas!

*

Jeffrey said...

BT,

One more thing. You're an asshole for deleting all my comments on your blog. Looks like that Mukhabarat chip in your frontal lobe is functioning just fine.

As friends, I think we should be allowed to criticize one another, don't you?

*

beachmom1 said...

Thanks, Kid, for putting this all together. Sorry about that asshole Jeffrey, but I suppose every country has to have a few of them. A lot of Americans (pro-war, no doubt) still don't seem to get why this turn in developments in the Iraqi blogosphere is SUCH a big deal, and just wonderful. They're TALKING to each other PUBLICLY. The conversation has started, and perhaps it can be expanded to all kinds of subjects. If people don't talk, how will the country's problem's be solved?

You're a real hero, Kid. Yeah -- I mean YOU.

"The highest form of patriotism is dissent" -- Thomas Jefferson

Monica said...

beachmom1 -

Sorry, but that isn't an actual Thomas Jefferson quote. Unfortunately people (uninformed politicians and news people) keep repeating it as if it were true and dumbing down our society. I believe the quote actually comes from a WWII pacifist.

Check google, you'll see.

Here is one reference: http://volokh.com/posts/1146554363.shtml

Here is another: http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeffcont.htm

annie said...

I don't understand the animosity towards ITM, especially considering the study has been discredited.

the study was discredited or does that not make any difference?


monica, the study has only been discredited by people without a scientific or mathmatical background. you see it doesn't do any good for a political appointee or a journalist, professor of international studies, etc, for any of these people.

any doctor can submit a refutement to lancet or an established medical journal for publication, so far no one has done it. the lancet report will not be considered disputd w/in the scientific field until then.

kid's post, the one directly below this one, he explains why he feels the way he does about ITM. it is very clear, if you read it, it may answer your question.

there is also an interesting link on the comment section from a doctor explaining how a refutement must come from w/in the scientific establishment to be considered credible. the one above i didn't bother reading, because there was no link, and i am not qualified to be the judge of a study such as this, i will trust the most respected research journal.

Monica said...

annie -

I did read his post. There is a vague reference that ITM is going about things in the wrong way but nothing that truly makes me understand, which is why I posed my questions.

Here is one article refuting the clustering technique used in the Lancet study: http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009108

Zeyad at the Healing Iraq blog doesn't believe the number either.

So what happens when the study is proven wrong by the experts you require? Would that change any of the opinions of ITM?

My assumption (and I know it's bad to assume) is that some people feel that for someone to say that this Lancet study is flawed means that the person making this claim doesn't believe there have been a great deal of Iraqis die due to the war, and I don't think that's the case. Those aren't mutually exclusive things - the study can be wrong and the number of Iraqi deaths can be high (just not 655,000).

Tom Villars said...

Kid,

If someone called your blog:

...a horrible freak of a blog
...makes me fall alseep anyway by the half of any given post
...this site makes me nauseous

would you be pissed? I agree de-linking was an over reaction but give the guys a break. They have given more time and effort than just about any other Iraqi blogger out there and to have such hatred of their work thrown back at them would be hard for anyone to take. Say what you will about Omar and Mohammed but they do more than just sit behind a keyboard and criticize so for that they deserve some respect.

So how about this, you make a post apologizing for the remarks you made about ITM and say instead you agree to disagree. If you do that, I'll personally plead your case with the brothers and see about getting you re-linked and more importantly continuing the dialog.

When I started my site, Iraqi Blogger Technical Support, to help collect donations for Iraqi bloggers I desperately wanted to include Riverbend as she represented a political faction of the Iraqi people that ITM would never address. I pleaded and begged for months, but she finally told me she appreciated the effort but wasn't interested. Riverbend’s rejection was my biggest disappointment for the entire effort.

You have been able to do something I never did. You are correct to be proud of what you have accomplished but please don’t stop with a single post. It’s your decision on what happens next.

miraj said...

Why everybody is worried over the numbers? Majority missed the point!!! It is our blood. Don't tell me who killed who. What is happening here is a result for a stupid policy.

Monica said...

miraj -

I understand blood is being shed in Iraq (both American and Iraqi). No one is discounting that.

khalid jarrar said...

btw kids, if you have exact coordinates of any location, you know you can get us a nice picture from google earch for example, would you?:)

Allah's Cousin said...

Kid,

Good for you. I stopped reading ITM because he simply panders to the American right wing.

One must ask oneself, how any self-respecting Arab can have a link to little-green-footballs to begin with. ITM is pathetic, and a minority.

I too supported the war in the beginning. But facts are facts. Not only does he pander, but now he wants to go against mathematics? And on top of that he says that those researchers had ulteriour motives, and fabricated those figures.

I personally think the 600,000 figure is too high, intuitively. Its one thing to disagree with the math, and another to accuse researchers from JHU of ulteriour motives just so that you can pander to your own agenda.

ITM, you suck. You are a disagrace.

-Allah's Cousin

Tom Villars said...

Katrin said, "I think about a new modell now: an independent Kurdistan that will prove, that there actually are people in ME who love freedom and democracy. We should concentrate our energy on protecting these people and let the rest have what they just firmly voiced: their way."

I fear you may be right about where the situation is heading, but it's not yet time to give up. The Kurds had their issues after 91 and it took them a while to work things out. The Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) agreed to share power but within two years they'd screwed it up and the PUK and KDP wound up with their own regions and administrations.

Iraqis are going through the same thing right, but with a lot more bloodshed. Hopefully they'll work it out, but we need to continue to support them.

Roderick said...

I'm glad I stumbled on this site from Zeyad's (Healing Iraq) blog. It's an amazing resource.

From an American's perspective, ITM is also a wonderful resource, as is Zeyad's site. "Triangulating" the opnions from all these different Iraqis helps us understand and see the whole picture.

I find the Lancet study's figures to be suspect because the numbers are suspiciously high. This numbers issue should not be confused with the more important issue of Iraqi civilian casualties, which must be staggering, even if well short of 655,000. Civilians are the main bearer of casualties as they are the main target of combatants, especially among the terrorists, insurgents, and sectarian militias.

Is an American presence a principal cause for all this? Is that an opinion that many of you folks hold? Just wondering. Americans or no Americans, we in the U.S. know that the ultimate responsiblity and causes for this violence are among the Iraqis themselves. We Americans would truly love to see an end to all this craziness, and are willing to examine our governments responsibility in all this.

May peace be with you all.

Konfused Kid said...

Monica,

Whether the Lancet study was accurate or not, what moved me to post about ITM with such diligence was their ideological standpoint and their incredibly un-Iraqi rhetoric, perfectly coming on display at that post - they do not represent Iraqi people. A majority of Iraqi bloggers have been watching them talk for three years with no response, that what was behind such a strong-worded response. The main point is that you should understand Iraqis from their own standpoint, not from an Iraqi adopting your own ideology and is trying to sell it to you as Iraqis' own to garner support for American presence, that's just wrong, right? and will only complicate matters further on ; the correct way is to understand Iraqi the way they are.

THat said, while I absolutely find ITM's ideology unbearable, I do believe that they embrace it wholeheartedly and believe their own crap, thereby my standpoint against them is not personal, it is simply ideological. I do have to say that they work hard in doing what they do. and can provide professional-looking analysis, although with hideous content. I will not apologize for any ideological dispute however, I simply want to make it clear that this is nothing personal, and if they are willing to discuss matters with me in a civil fashion, I will not object to them - in as much as if they find it in themselves that they can accept to talk in a civil manner with, say, the John Hopkins group.
If that is fine with them, then it is fine with me.
Salam Adil have already invited them to join the Iraqi blogodrome google group, which was spawned by this discussion, let's say if it is in their heart to accept it as it really was, a discussion circle that is completely neutral, hell, even Khalid Jarrar, a bitter opponent of ITM, agreed on that they should be invited to the group.

Nadia said...

Good job konfused kid and all the rest!

Lynnette in Minnesota said...

The main point is that you should understand Iraqis from their own standpoint, not from an Iraqi adopting your own ideology and is trying to sell it to you as Iraqis' own to garner support for American presence Kid

Omar and Mohammed are Iraqi. Therefore their opinions are also Iraqi. Theirs may not be the majority opinion of Iraqis, true. But to say it is not their belief is incorrect. They have a right to their opinion, just as you do.

It is up to us to determine if the wool is being pulled over our eyes. Which is why I tend to read all sorts of things about Iraq, not just ITM, you, Zeyad etc. I really cannot stomach Faiza or Raed, but I do read Riverbend and Baghdad Treasure to get the anti-American viewpoints. I also ask questions of people who have been to Iraq.

And Kid, you got off lightly with the de-linking thing. If you had said some of the things you did to Zeyad your ass would have been grass.

Monica said...

Konfused Kid -

Thank you so much for responding. I appreciate the dialogue as I really do want to understand. Can you further explain to me what you mean by un-Iraqi rhetoric? Being an American (which in this case puts me at a disadvantage), I'm not sure that I understand what you mean. Do you mean that what ITM promotes is bad for Iraqis and against what most want?

You said:
The main point is that you should understand Iraqis from their own standpoint, not from an Iraqi adopting your own ideology and is trying to sell it to you as Iraqis' own to garner support for American presence, that's just wrong, right?

So if I am to understand you correctly, ITM has adopted a Western democracy ideology and is portraying it as the Iraqi ideology in order to keep US forces in Iraq? Is that right? I certainly wouldn't have understood that to be the case without someone pointing it out to me (which I guess is part of the point).

I thought I read that you wanted the US forces to stay in Iraq for now too. It seems most of the world wants the US to leave Iraq, so how does one garner support for them to stay? Do you have any ideas?

Also, can you please explain to me how your ideology differs from ITMs? I think that's a big part of the puzzle that I'm missing.

I think it's great that you disagree with their ideology and yet don't want to make this personal. I hope they join you in some productive discussions so you can all work together to create solutions that will help unite and rebuild Iraq.

I'm rooting for all of you.

Again, thanks for the dialogue. I appreciate hearing (or in this case reading) a new perspective.

annie said...

rodrik, you're partially right, you must have skipped my earlier link

we in the U.S. know that the ultimate responsiblity and causes for this violence

"The point deserves frequent repetition: We did this. We caused it. We're not just callous bystanders to genocide, as in Rwanda, but the active ingredient that made it possible. We turned Iraq into a happy hunting ground "

Batman said...

What ITM understands is that the timing and exageration of the study is specifically designed to affect the mood of the U.S. electorate, the Congressional elections, and a pullout of Iraq. There haven't been 600,000 deaths yet, but if the MNF leaves, it is entirely likely that Iraqis will kill that many Iraqis in the ensuing civil war.

Monica said...

annie -

There are a lot of elements to Iraq being a happy hunting ground right now - including sectarian violence and foreign terrorists. To lay blame completely on the US does a disservice to everyone. It might be gratifying at some level, but I don't see it as being helpful.

Do you want the US troops to leave Iraq? What is your proposed solution for going forward?

Matt said...

I remember Kid you said a while back US wasn't completely to blame, that they to some extent were a catalyst. So, do you think (to some extent of course), that what we're seeing here is simply old tensions flaring back up? Also, MAD PROPS ON THE NEOCOUNTER! I want to get one but I want the full version like you got and surely don't want to pay the money. I'm in college, you can sympathize. No money, except for beer here and there, as well as sending stuff to my significant other, heh. Stay safe!

Batman said...

KK,
Exactly how was ITM's post UnIraqi? Do most Iraqis prefer rule by the most brutal strongman (law of the jungle) to compromise by elected, representative government? Which strongman would they prefer whent the Americans leave? Mehdi Army? Al Qieda? Baathists? Iran? Syria?

beachmom1 said...

Monica,

Yes I am aware of that but it is now a deep seated legendary saying in our country, having taken on a life of its own. Are you disputing the meaning of the quote? Or are you the type who thinks anyone who dissents is unpatriotic?

Batman said...

miraj said...
Why everybody is worried over the numbers? Majority missed the point!!! It is our blood. Don't tell me who killed who. What is happening here is a result for a stupid policy.

10:41 PM
What is happening here is the result of various strongmen with militias trying to establish a new dictatorship, combined with the backing or aquiescence of too many of the Iraqi people. If the majority of Iraqis do not share ITM's desire for peaceful, pluralistic society with a representative government, then exactly what form of government do Iraqis desire? What is the alternative? Someone please answer this for me?

beachmom1 said...

And one more thing -- citing the Editorial Board from the WSJ is less than useless. The news portion of the WSJ is fine, but everybody knows their editorial board is written by a bunch of right wing hacks (I've seen them on PBS -- I KNOW what I'm talking about). They don't even think waterboarding is torture for crying out loud.

Monica said...

beachmom1 -

I find it strange you would offer a quote and represent it as someone's and yet know that it isn't. That just simply makes no sense. You'll have to explain the humor or logic that I'm missing here because it doesn't add up.

No, I don't think dissent is the great form of patriotism, although I don't think that it is unpatriotic either. I appreciate having more than one line of thinkging as I think it facilitates debate.

Do you agree with the person who actually said this quote - that dissent against WWII was the greatest form of patriotism?

You're right, WSJ is known to have a conservative leaning editorials. That by no means discredits their points on the clusters necessary to have provide valid statistics. I hope another group will try again using this criticism. I think we'd all be better from knowing the real stats.

nuke gingrich said...

What an interesting conversation. After finding your site by following a link from littlegreenfootballs, I have spent the better part of the last hour reading the comments.

My impression is that this free flow of conversation in the Iraqi blogosphere is uncommon. If so, then kudos, Kid for being an important instigator in beginning something that is vitally important -- the ability to listen to the words, not only of your friends, but of your opponents as well. I'm not talking about democracy, but something that is much more important -- liberty.

Iraqis should know that the hopes and prayers of millions of Americans are with you in this time of stuggle. You will find your way. The Western armies will leave. And we all hope that it is sooner, rather than later.

Warmest regards,
nuke

Anonymous said...

I (an American) was against the invasion but not out of love for Iraqis, I simply didn't think it served American interest. I was pretty sure the success with the Kurds would be repeated in the rest of Iraq. I imagined that, if I were an Iraqi, I would want the US to overthrow Saddam - and, judging by some of what I read, many Iraqis felt exactly that way.

I did not count on the violence that followed. I was completely blindsided by the level of violence that followed. I did not expect it at all. I expected a repeat of a defeated Japan, a defeated Germany, a safeguarded Kurdish area. Peace, freedom, and economic development. I gather that the United States government didn't expect it either. They were expecting another Japan, another Germany, another Kurdish protected area. Japan turned out pretty well, didn't it?

It is very easy right now to blame the current situation on the difference between Iraq and Japan, between Iraq and Germany, between the Shiites and Sunnis and the Kurds. And the difference is - well, the difference is the Iraqis. If I'm going to blame the US, I'm going to blame it for failing to realize that the Iraqis can't handle freedom. Individually, they can. Individual Iraqis can move to the US and they're fine. Together, it seems they cannot. To be more specific, it appears that the Shiites and the Sunnis cannot live side by side in peace.

It appears now, in hindsight, that there really is nothing that the US can do, or could have done, to fix the situation in Iraq other than to become what Saddam Hussein was, and the US is not going to do that. The US should have realized what it would have to do to pacify Iraq, it should have realized, therefore, that it could not overthrow Saddam Hussein and also impose peace on the Iraqis without becoming as dictatorial as Saddam had been.

Or else partition Iraq. For, it appears - at the moment - that the fundamental problem is that the Shiites and the Sunnis cannot live in peace together.

Katrin said...

And the difference is - well, the difference is the Iraqis.

As a German I totally disagree. We've had our share of self-destruction before the occupation started. The only reason the violence didn't continue was that the ones who hated democracy had suffered a total defeat: unconditional surrender.

And talking about success: we've had a neighbouring enemy just like Iraq has now. One who didn't want Germany to become a democracy, just like Iran doesn't with Iraq. The success only came in 1990, when Germany was united, remember?

Konfused Kid,
thanks for your explanations. When some of my views seem sketchy to you, please consider that English is my third language.

I understand that your main point is, you don't want your country to become a copy of Western lifestyle, right? Replace 'western' with 'american' and that argument is more than familiar to me. Don't you think my country didn't share exactly the same thoughts?

When the debate about an Iraqi invasion started, our Chancellor played on this tune by refusing to cooperate with two of our former occupiers: the US and UK. We were in the middle of election campagnes and suddenly he started shouting towards the American president: there will be no German soldiers in Iraq! It was a phantom debate because no one had actually asked for any German soldiers.

We've had an enormous peace wave rolling over the country - demonstrations, flags... I asked them if 'no war' really meant that Iraqi people were living in peace. It didn't really matter. Because they despised the US more than they cared for you.

My approach is different. Why should I give up a reasonable conclusion just because it accidentally turns out to be the same someone else has come up with? What people like Annie don't want to understand is, that the US or right-wing or so-called Neocons don't matter to me. If America serves my interests, why should I give up my interests?

When I started reading Iraqi blogs, I was irritated. I expected the Iraqi future to be on top of the agenda. Instead I felt like being in the middle of US election campaigns.

And now you judge ITM not by their arguments, not by their vision of a future Iraq. You put their attitude towards the US on top of your judgement scheme. Are the US really that important?

I'm aware of the danger you're exposed if you don't loathe the US in Iraq nowadays. If you distance yourself from them out of security reasons, I (and they) will understand. Just don't take any measures that hurt you and your interests for the sake of being Anti-American. You would end up with the US dominating your mind, that's the tricky thing about being Anti.

Last issue: I never considered the Kurds another sect. We have an ongoing debate about the status of Turkey in the European Union and the Kurds' situation is one item of negociation. The Kurds in Syria are in such a desperate situation that there will be no chance of uprising. They get killed during soccer games without anyone noticing.

annie said...

citing the Editorial Board from the WSJ is less than useless.

beachmom! you really must pay attention. if you scroll to the bottom of the article it says the guy is a political consultant. i heard he also offers excellent deals on heart transplants and vasectomies. perhaps some of the people here who eagerly except scientific opinion from political hacks would like to volunteer to have their dicks operated on by the guy?

i'd say put your money where your mouth is but in this case it's would have to be another part of your anatomy.

annie said...

What people like Annie don't want to understand is, that the US or right-wing or so-called Neocons don't matter to me.

oh kat, you are such a blow hard. how's the $$$$

After finding your site by following a link from littlegreenfootballs

oh what a joy. by all mean kid, check out this site, total rabid arab hating animals.

To lay blame completely on the US does a disservice to everyone. It might be gratifying at some level, but I don't see it as being helpful.

earth to monica, it is irrelevant if you think it is either gratifying or unhelpful. it is the truth, accept it. we invaded, illegally. of course it's our fault. we started it and we continue to further it. it shouldn't be up to us, it is irrelevant whether i think the occupation should remain. it is not my country. it belongs to the iraqi people alone. and they alone should decide. itis quite clear the majority want us out. we should leave for that reason alone. only then can iraqis take responsibility for their future. they are not children. we have no moral authority over them. what the hell are we doing there. get over yourself and all your rationalizing and accept the role america willing played (that of lying instigator numero uno) in initiating this genocidal disaster. say a prayer and ask forgiveness.

annie said...

wow kid, i was checking out the end of your last comment section and someone left this incredible lnk, about ITM turns out it's more than a little affiliated w/spirit of america and ccf. they are in deep dide.

Katrin said...

someone left this incredible lnk, about ITM turns out it's more than a little affiliated w/spirit of america and ccf. they are in deep dide.

You know that they risk being killed for the allegations you spread here, Annie.

Now let me tell you. My grandparents once were in danger as well. The SS was informed by a blockwart, that they had "degenerate" art hanging in their bedroom and close relationships with Jews. The SS was stupid enough to believe that my grandmom had painted the Heckel herself and the Jews had been a doctor they had accidentely called in an emergency case. That's how they managed to save their lives. The Heckel is hanging in my house now.

You know what the difference between you and the Blockwart is? His accusations were true at least.

FYI:
http://www.germanexpressionism.com/printgallery/heckel/

Konfused Kid said...

True, Gandhi's comment with the link to ITM's schemes leaves little to be desired.

Beachmom, r u really a beachmom?

Anonymous said...

Katrin: As a German I totally disagree. We've had our share of self-destruction before the occupation started. The only reason the violence didn't continue was that the ones who hated democracy had suffered a total defeat: unconditional surrender.

One point is that the Germans were not as far as I know divided into Sunni and Shiite groups with a long history of mutual hostility. Another point is - there doesn't seem any way to apply "unconditional surrender" to Iraq now or in 2003. The ones fighting are different groups without any overall leadership structure. Moreover, Germany's Nazi government surrendered completely only after a tremendous bombardment of the country which the US absolutely will not apply to Iraq, so the allied approach to Germany is simply out of the question. The US will not apply that level of brutality, or anything approaching it, to Iraq.

Therefore I see no solution in the form of a total military defeat followed by an unconditional surrender, because it's just not going to happen. But I do see a possible solution if Iraq divides itself into Shiite and Sunni regions. The Kurds have an autonomous region and it is doing well.

Katrin said...

One point is that the Germans were not as far as I know divided into Sunni and Shiite groups with a long history of mutual hostility.

No, but they had a violent history with three wars and millions of death with their neighboring enemy France. They had to be defeated three times, until literally there were no men left. We were a fatherless nation in the end. So they were by no means less self-destructive or any less violent than Iraqis seem to be today. And in no way better prepared for democracy.

The US will not apply that level of brutality, or anything approaching it, to Iraq.

I don't advocate it, I absolutely don't for the mercy of those who don't deserve it. But what are the alternatives?

Someone who has survived the Nazis and the Communists said these days (I'm translating, so don't make him responsible if I make a mistake):

"It's true that non-violence helps, that justice helps, too, just as love, benevolence, maybe education, forgiving and self-critical humility do help. But to me it remains the human drama: without determined force against religious fanatics that bristle with weapons or other fundamentalists who want to save humanity, we human beings don't even have a chance to dispute about the last things between heaven and earth."

I'm afraid he's right. Dividing Iraq into three regions would create new minorities, otherwise you would have to carry through enormous transfers. There are enough internally displaced persons already. It wouldn't prevent the external terrorists from spreading their message of violence and fear. They'd probably start fighting over the status of Baghdad. Those anonymous guys won't stop, because they don't fight for any cause that might satisfy them, if you grant it. They fight against the well-being of the average Iraqi.

If European countries would stop their body-count, which in my view is inhuman, and step aside the Iraqis and help them overcome this terrorism instead of delivering excuses to the anonymous bastards, there would be a better chance. Those who don't want to fight the terrorism might offer a Marshall plan instead. Give people in Badr City a chance. Why do we leave this kind of welfare up to Hezbollah and Iran?

kstamos said...

Does anyone know what has happened to the third brother, who at some point disagreed with ITM and started his own blog? (after the others visited the White House I think). It now seems to be offline (iraqilibe.blogspot.com)

Anonymous said...

You have a rare chance to turn away from Arabism and assign blame where it is due, instead of implicating the United States, the West, the Fadhils and "the Joos."

Don't blow it.

Konfused Kid said...

Ali Fadhil is alive and kicking. He just lost interest in blogging.

Dermezel said...

Peer reviewed science journals supercede standard media.

Also, why is the iraq model so interested in prop 87?

Allah's Cousin said...

I dont understand why everyone is trying to "secure Iraq."

There was never an Iraq. It was an artificual construct in the minds of Picot and Churchill in the British foreign office in the 1920s.

"Iraq" is an artificial country, that was taped together by British Colonialists. There was never a "country" there, or a shared history. Just Shias, Sunnies, and other groups living under the latest occupier, all with their own grievances.

Countries, borders, and vested interests must come from within - not from artificial lines drawn in the sand by ancient colonialists.

I do not see why anyone should force anyone else to do anything. Just take a fuckin poll, and ask Iraqis what they think should happen to their "country". If they want it split, then split it. If they want to make concentric circles, let them. If they want to split Iraq along the lines of who has the most dental filings, let them.

The point is to let the borders develop naturally. Only then will self-interest kick in, and allow for the creation of a true nation-state.

-Allah's Cousin

Konfused Kid said...

Allah's cousin - your point of view is right, but you seem to completely kick in the mud and ignore the reality of the world as it is - people like me, who were born in the newfound state of Iraq, seem to view it as their home, in as much as your love for Islam, for example - they LOVE the being called Iraq, despite the Sunni-Shiite conflict, despite the Kurdish separation, despite all, we LOVE our country. we hate to see it separated, only people who are high on some extremist prinicple want this, and these, contrary to the killing, are not a majority of Iraqis - these killings, by the way, are not a result or product of Islamic ideology in general, I mean the sectarain tensions, these are simply identity-related crisis, I've seen people who never prayed in their entire lives but who invest an enormous interest in rival sectarain issues - this is an important point. The people who are sectarain are either completely ignorant of religion, to which most of these people are, or have followed a particularly twisted strand of religion that completely spews hate on every other entity than their own - none of which are majorities in Iraq, but both can create tensions due to the sensitivity of the topics and their being backed up by homoegenous-sect societies, such as Saudi Arabia or Iran, who view 'the other' with such hatred because they don't live with them.

annie said...

they LOVE the being called Iraq

i love hearing you say this. love it. it is your generation, not the past that is iraqs future. unity. i love iraq too even tho i haven't been there. i love it thru the voices of iraqis.

Matt said...

Konfused Kid, yeah, I remmeber hearing the about Ali also. One of his brothers told me he was fine. If you could, pass off a salutation from me to him. Thanks!

annie said...

You know that they risk being killed for the allegations you spread here, Annie.

if they risk being killed it is for what they write and promote and who they align themselves with. regardless of whether one agree w/it or not, it speaks for itself.

go check out National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 78 U.S. Propaganda in the Middle East - The Early Cold War Version. you don't really think this stuff is not going on do you? if not them then who? i am just asking. i don't really know their thing but considering they made it all the way to the white house (not unlike jeff gannon who also had a blog that quoted straight from the white house press office)i think it is not outlandish to assume this and i highly doubt that people who consider these things would exclude them from this consideration. it's not like they aren't fairly transparent. only someone who is naive completely, which many many people are, would think it outlandish.

we are at war. this is all part of the process. pyops, lincoln, rendon, we spend millions on covert propaganda. we contol the info allowed in our own media coming out of iraq, embedded journalists have to clear their stories w/commanders on the ground.

so to silence me by insinuating that if anything happened to a huge mouthpiece for the occupation would be outted because i posted a link that any googler can find just by googling iraqthemodel w/ propaganda or mouthpiece or spirit of america, is absurd. it's not like you have to go to page 8. it's right there on the first page. anyone who is familiar w/rightwing newspeak can spot that stuff a mile away.

honestly, there are about 10 times as many leftwing bloggers in the US as right. dailykos, crooks and liars, atrios, fdl, gets millions of page views everyday. littlegreenfootballs and freekrepublic are a peanut by comparison. think about it. the prez is supported by 30% of americans. that 30% includes all your red state illiterates, christian nutcases, and some old folks. skim off those guys and whats left, maybe 15%.

we've heard it all. ITM sounds just like all the rightwing because the rightwing all talk the same and cover the same topics w/the same talking pts. thats where the term rubberstamp republicans came from. they march in lockstep.the left isn't so constricted.

so, if ITM wants to sound original, they have to think original. it is not me who puts them in danger, please.

An Italian. said...

Dear Kid,

You are right to be proud of this debate in the Iraqi blogger community in exile and in Iraq, and I hope that you’ll go on debating among yourselves, and with the other Iraqis who do not blog (e-mail make it possible).

The publication of the ‘Lancet’ report that has revealed to the world the real scale of the crimes committed against the Iraqi people by their US ‘liberators’ and by the situation they created, and the grotesque and hysterical reaction to it by the two creeps at ‘Iraq The Minion’, have luckily brought about the end of any mafia-like silence (in Sicilian, “omertà”) towards those two shameful propaganda agents who French-kissed the Ape-in-Chief Bush in the White House.

But this has brought forth, as you can see, the reaction of the warmongering apes and monkeys from the US (where they are by now, thanks be to God, an ever-dwindling minority), and of a couple of scoundrels from other countries paid by the US Govt..

Notice that they want, subhumanely, to discredit ‘The Lancet’ report, and what it means.
So we have the lying scumbag ‘Common Sense’ (!), this ‘Fern R’, the only apparently kind ‘Monica’ (“the study has been discredited […] since the study was discredited” !!! Monica, liar & pinhead!), plenty of other fake experts, the troll and rat Jeffrey Schuster, our sweet apette Lynnette, of course, and an elderly German the Lincoln Group recruited in the Red Lights district of Hamburg.

They need to be answered by you, the Iraqi bloggers.
I notice that these animals try (baresnoutedly lying, as they use to do) to use what Zeyad said (that the dead may have been 300 or 400 thousands instead of 600,000) against the report.
What they want the world to forget is:
THAT THE REPORTS GIVES THE LIE TO WHAT BUSH, BLAIR AND THEIR SUPPORTERS KEPT REPEATING, SHOWING THAT THE IRAQI CASUALTIES HAVE BEEN TEN TIMES MORE THAN THEY SAID.
When these criminals kept repeating that their ‘collateral damage’ (nice Nazi expression) + militias + insurgents had caused the death of ‘only’ 30,000 Iraqis, they were LYING by ONE ORDER OF MAGNITUDE.

Two documents that assess the report, and validate its findings:

“The Statistical Assessment Service ( http://www.STATS.org ) - a non-profit, non-partisan media research organization affiliated with George Mason University and committed to correcting scientific misinformation in the media - finds the study estimating 650,000 excess Iraqi casualties since American forces entered the country to be methodologically sound”.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15336.htm

Why Zeyad is probably right (the Iraqis murdered being in the order of 300,000 or so, not double that number), and the report is credible all the same, and why it happened (the report used the CIA estimate for the mortality rate before the invasion, 5.5, while the correct one was probably the UN estimate, 9.5):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1925588,00.html

These two articles answer the disingenuous ‘Common Sense’:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/19/AR2006101901799_pf.html

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20617973-1702,00.html


Ah, Kid, and since our dear Lynnette dares to write “And Kid, you got off lightly with the de-linking thing. If you had said some of the things you did to Zeyad your ass would have been grass”, do the right thing, and whip into grass the ass of this cheeky four-handed critter.

Tom Villars said...

Kid,

Of the Iraqi bloggers you listed, how many are Sunni? I'm assuming close to 100%, but I don't want to guess.

ps. Any chance you want to kiss and make up with ITM?

Allah's Cousin said...

Konfused Kid,

" seem to view it as their home, in as much as your love for Islam, for example"

I dont know where that came from, but I am an Athiest, with a capital A.

--------------------

I agree that you LOVE Iraq Kid. Its natural to love the place where you grew up, had a home, family, etc etc. This is a natural bond we feel.

As I am sure other people feel. And, as I am sure, other people dont.

The point I am making, is that you cannot hope to understand the current conflict, without historical context. Like it or not, Iraq was selo-taped together. There is no cohesion. Yes I understand that we all wish it could be so, but history corrects us all. This is the reality dude.

The current conflict between Sunni and Shia etc, is precisely because there was never NO conflict between them! There was never some peace deal, or some unifying culture of commonality. Modern day Iraq with Saddam was a SUNNI dictatorship. The Shias would naturally "get along".

----------------

Thats what I mean. Do you think if left to their own devices, without British colonialism, the Sunnis and Shias in Mesopotamia would have got together one sunny and said:

"Hey guys! I have a great idea! Lets make this country called Iraq where all of us live together, both sunnis and shias. Oh and lets throw in the Kurds too."

Probably not. The Shias would have probably been absorbed into Iran, and Sunnis into some sunni Arab country to the West, etc. Thats NATURAL. Dumb, yes. But natural. Thats how cultures evolve. Because eventually sometime down the line, sunni and shia realise that hey, you know what, founding a country on my religious sect is pretty dumb. Whats the difference what I am? And from there boundries get drawn up naturally.

But Iraq today? tsk tsk. Just more artificial upon articifial BS, Kid.

There was no country called Iraq. Never was. Only memories of young people like you - nice childhood memories - of a status quo under a dictator from a specific sect. Deep down though, there was never any cohesion - never a true nation.

-Allah's Cousin

MixMax said...

Tom villars,
you don't have to guess!
your assumption is way wrong
in my short time blogging and getting to read Iraqi bloggers, I have to disappoint you that the Iraqi bloggers are not only sunni.

Magda (M.D) said...

Kid and all the other Iraqi bloggers well done

Everyone else, the Lancet is a long established well respected medical journal, ALL accepted publications are peer-reviewed (i.e have to be seen and verified as based on acceptable scientific basis by a group of experts in the subject- in this case epidemiology).

Unlike "freedom of speech" material published by media, or online. What is published in medical journals may not be it the gospel, but equally you cannot just dismiss it out of hand.

Regardless what you think of extrapolated values, I believe the mortuary in Baghdad is reporting several thousand unidentified bodies being brought in monthly, and for those of you who have forgoten this somewhere along the line THESE ARE PEOPLE who previously had lives, dreams, hopes, and FAMILIES.

I would add that the New England Journal of Medicine (another well established and peer-reviewed medical publication) pulished in December 2004 statistics on the then 1000 dead American soldiers, and the 10,000 with severe injuries including multiple amputations, and 90% body area burns many of whom needed long term / life-long care.

NO-ONE WINS IN WARS.

My own overwhelming feeling when reading ITM's post was anger at how they felt they could speak on behalf of all Iraqis to claim we accepted these "sacrifices".

Tom Villars said...

mixmax,

Could enlighten me then on which of the Iraqi bloggers the Kid has cited are not Sunni? :)

MixMax said...

Allah's Cousin... I think your analysis is baseless for many reasons, one of them because Saddam did not exclude the Sunni from his tyranny, so applying this leader to a sect and exclude another from another sect is far from being correct. Even some Kurdish leader benefited from Saddam and his tyranny in order for them to win their enemies.

To make the long story short, Saddam did not belong to any sect, did not promote and put a sect on the account fo the other, Saddam created a sect, a social sect called Saddam thugs, who are roaming the streets of baghdad, tikrit, ramady mainly in addition to other groups in other cities in Iraq.

I am not trying to be hostile here, but please don't make assumptions based on wrongness created in the first place by the U.S. when they created a an Iraqi government based on the different groups living in Iraq. That was the seed which planted the whole shit. I don't agree with those who say that what's happening is the consequences of Saddam's opression to the Shia and shit like that, because Sunni, Kurds, Christians, even Yezidees suffered greatly from that butcher

MixMax said...

tom villars,

don't know, to be honest :)

Konfused Kid said...

Tom Villars,

Ran out of arguments, are we? That's a very lame dig, I'll explain:

When iraqis get together, REAL Iraqis get together, they don't bother to find out if the Iraqi opposite them is Shia or Sunni ; at least, until recently, I have been writing to these bloggers for quite some time and I met some of them in real life, but I never asked them whether they are SUnni/Shiite to their face, that's a grave offense!
One can only speculate whether the Iraqi is Sunni/Shiite judging by his family name and stuff, but that method is wrong in the case you are trying to prove, because if one relies on names, Omar, your hero, will automatically be labelled a Sunni, go figure.

However, I can tell you that some of the bloggers here are Shiites because of stuff they have written in their blogs: Iraqi Signor is a very religious Shiite of the peaceful nature - Hala S is also Shiite, Nibraas Kazimi is a Shiite, but I have to point out that he is a member of Ahmed al-Chalabi, an ITM-like minded SECULAR Shiite who got 0.2% populartiy in the BBC poll (as opposed to also Shiite 55% Abdulaziz al-Hakim).
Zeyad is an atheist, he also is against ITM.

As for kissing with ITM, i already talked about that in a previous comment, c my comment which adresses monica.

Cheers

MixMax said...

tom villars,
see? I thought Kid would reply to your question :)

Jenny said...

'Secular shi-ites' Heheheh.
All that suffering is making you people like Jews.

Love, Jenny.

Tom Villars said...

Kid,

Thanks for the info. I'm trying to get a better understanding of the sects and what political role they play. I admire you consider yourself an Iraqi first and last (something Omar said as well when asked during an interview in 2005).

When I was more actively involved with the Iraqi blogosphere, I had trouble getting any of the Kurds to join. Have you had any luck including them in your discussions? I'd be curious to hear their view points included with all the others.

As to kissing up with ITM, how about if ITM aggrees to join Iraqi Blogodrome and when they do you say sorry for calling them a "...horrible freak of a blog." Deal?

DagneyT said...

The Lancett publication was not based on hospital/medical reports, as are standard with such reports. Instead, it was was done by interviews, which is what made it misleading. For instance, their teams went door to door, asking "How many in your family died...?" In any given neighborhood, there may be many in the same family living there. How many households had the same "uncle Omar"?

Data based on such "fact" collection methods are never taken seriously, unless there is an agenda.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I neglected to tell you that you did a wonderful round-up. That Iraqis feel free to express themselves is a success for American and coalition troops!

Konfused Kid said...

Tom Villars,

Thank you for your reply, I hope you understand that calling someone to their face like that is insulting, and since you seem like an educated person, I am willing to take that as it is.
I have no problem with ITM joining the blogosphere, as a matter of fact, we want everyone to join. I am sorry for you not being able to be in, we have discussed including non-Iraqis in the group but temporarily it has been voted against.
As for an apology, Although I am an active member of the group, I am not the owner of it and therefore my apology is not a requirement to their entry. The only sort of apology I would make is that my differences with them have nothing to do with them personally and is based only on the fact that I find their ideology disgusting, but I completely respect their right to endorse and blog about it and will be very happy if they join our group.

As Michael Corleone once said:
"Nothing personal, it's strictly business."

Konfused Kid said...

Dagneyts,

THe health ministry is run by Sadrists, do u know what that means? if u don't, then stop talking things u don't know about. And the morgue is guarded by militas, anyone of the wrong sect who go there to see his dead will be killed as well. The numbers reported is an insulting underestimate of the real killings.

Konfused Kid said...

Allah's cousin. I did not read 'cousin', I just read Allah and figured you are an Islamist.

1. Allah has no cousins.
2. Where r u from? If you are not from the Arab nation, which I am sure you are not, then u just read all this from some book and came here with all your brilliant insight. Saddam was a DICTATOR, not a SUNNI dictator. a lot of Sunnis (such as I am) suffered under him, his only bar was loyalty. 2nd of all, your theory is false for a lot of reasons, but most importantly because you are not an Iraqi and you never were, so you can never have the right to judge what's 'deep down inside'. I love my country, I love it, do you understand that, love it - I am a Sunni from Adhamiya, and two of my best friends who were killed are now buried in Najaf and Karbala, respectively. if you do not know what Adhamiya, Najaf and Karbala represent, I am trying to be polite in all the answers I am giving here, but you have crossed the line with your so smug knowledge and incredibly insulting accusations regarding my country, so I would ask you very kindly to have a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up.

Allah's Cousin said...

"As to kissing up with ITM, how about if ITM aggrees to join Iraqi Blogodrome and when they do you say sorry for calling them a "...horrible freak of a blog." Deal?"

Gee, I dont know. Will ITM apologize for pandering to the American right wing so much that he will accuse researchers from JHU of fabricating numbers because of some agenda?

All the comments on his comment sections might just as well be overheard at a country Texas rodeo.

Bottom line Tim Villars, is that people feel that ITM is not being HONEST. He panders. This is what most of the beef is with him. Any fact that comes his way, ITM will find a way to warp it such that it resonates with NeoCons, and conversatives on his comments section. Why, I dont know. Dont care really. His spining makes OReilly look like al Sharpton.

And before you jump down my throat on "..but what about the liberals!.." let me tell you something: I dont care for either.

-Allah's Cousin

chitta said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
chitta said...

Hi:

I am a first time reader of this blog. (Came here from Najma's blog.)

I read the column at
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YjY2M2M2YmY3YWZhODg5ZTQwYjdlN2MxM2FjNzQ0OTA=
(a right wing magazine)

I was wondering about people's thought on a fairly conducted vote to determine if US should leave or not and then following it up with whatever the vote is.

best regards
Chitta

miraj said...

Allah's cousin, I thought you're Iraqi when you stood in the faces of Iraqi Bloggers Centrals when they were trying to compare between the Amish and Iraqis!!!

Tom Villars said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tom Villars said...

Kid,

Okay I think we have the makings of a deal here, let me see what I can do.

And yea I know asking ones sect is a very low class thing to do. But with people being killed at illegal checkpoints because they don't have the "right" name, it is unfortunately still something to be considered when trying to understand the violence taking place.

<OT>Do you play poker?</OT>

ps. I wished you'd found someone besides Michael Corleone to quote as I don't think he's the best role model for Iraqis right now. lol

Allah's Cousin said...

Miraj,

Me? Iraqi? Sorry! Im merely a concerned citizen of Planet Earth, - a human being - which I think is enough qualification for doing what meager job I can do from a laptop to try to make a difference.

One of my favourite pass times is drawing light onto people who are hypocrites, and currently the American right wing is no short of such people. That is why I was on IBC bitching about that Amish-Iraqi post.

-Allah's Cousin

miraj said...

Allah's cousin, for me you weren't bitching. You showed not only their hypocrisy but their stupidity too. That was one piece of art!

Sorry Kid, last off topic post.

Wild Rice said...

Looking at the emotional and hysterical tone of the ITM post I am of the opinion that it is not really about the Lancet article at all. I think the author has just realized what is coming down the pike and it does not look good at all.

Jeffrey said...

Kid,

I LOVE it!!! You really got the jacked-up POTTY-MOUTH in full effect!!!

Seethe on, brother!

You're really a RUFF customer!

-- your Psycho Sicko American (Hell YEAH!!!) friend from New York APPROVES!!!

Heh heh.

*

Allah's Cousin said...

Konfused Kid,

"If you are not from the Arab nation, which I am sure you are not, then u just read all this from some book and came here with all your brilliant insight."

Wrong again Kid. I am in fact an Arab. And Athiest.

I am sorry to hear about your friends who were killed. And I am sorry you are being overly emotional about this subject.

I did not insult your country. I merely said there was no cohesion behind "Iraq's" various sects from day one, precisely because it-is-artificial.

And I also told you that it is natural for people to feel want and love for their homeland, especially via childhood memories. You are being overtly emotional. Calm down dude.

Regarding Saddam, yes, I know he was a Sunni, and wanted loyalty above all. You are reading too much into one particular statement of my entire post/point. Saddam was a thug, who happened to be from the sunni sect. Now whether or not he wanted sunni hegemony over others or not, I dont know. BUT. That does not change the fact that Iraq was made by the British, as an artificual hodge-podge of various sects who have never known peace amongst themselves.

Once the strong-man was removed, guess what happened? They picked off from where they last left off 1000 years ago.

I think you know this, but you currently being too emotional to see it, because you perceived me to "insult" Iraq. Well you're wrong.

One of my best - no - my best childhood friends who I am still in contact with to this day, is an Iraqi, from the Kubba family. So the last thing I would do is "insult" your country, or people.

But that is the one of the tragedies of our Arab lands. Artificial carve-ups by past Imperial powers. Its a fact.

-Allah's Cousin

An Italian. said...

@ Tom Villars.

OK, our host the Kid is very good-mannered, but...

I mean, how did you DARE to ask him, in his own blog, for an apology to those two @#*ç at 'Iraq The Minion'???

It is HIS effing business (and every reasonable being in the world knows that he owns no apology to them whatsoever), NOT the business of a benighted Ahmehwican, don't ye think?

This, combined with your ignorance (appalling on the part of somebody who has read them) about the Iraqi bloggers, should show you why most people in the world regard the Ahmehwicans of your persuasion not as human beings, but as apes and monkeys.

ella said...

Kid
I do not want to contradict you but Saudi Arabia is not a homogenous society. That's exactly their problem. In KSA about 10% of population are
Shia, and they do live in oil-producing area. That's why KSA government and wahabis in particular are afraid of Iran and shia in general.
As I am not Iraqi I am not sure if I understand correctly but I think that the current problem is that parties in Iraq fight over power, some of them are sunnis and some shia and they all want to put themselves in a position where they would have most power after US and others withdraw from Iraq. I think also that sunni, althought they did suffer under Sadam were majority in Tikrit where Sadam came from, that's why he gave higher positions mainly to Sunni and also that is why most people believe that sunni iraqis did not suffer or did not suffer as much under Sadam as shias. I also think that it is natural to turn to religion after Sadam did not allowed, I think, celebration of ashura and some other religious celebrations. However I think that some people made 180 degree turn and from non-religion became super-religious. For some it was the answer to long-time suffering under Sadam and more free religious environment right now, but some just use religion as a stepping stone to power.
If I am wrong please correct me.

ella said...

Allah cousin

The Iraqi creation is not exactly artificial. It may have started partially like that but presently there is cohesion not only among Iraqis who think themselves as Iraqis but also among Jordanians or Syrians whose countries according to you would also be artificial.
These countries belonged all to Ottoman empire but Ottoman empire was at the beginning as artificial as any other country or empire in a long history of ME. Do you think that vietnam or Korea or Cambodia in Far East are also artificial creations? Or Sweden and Finland in Europe? Or perhaps Ukraine?

Konfused Kid said...

Okay, I am going to answer several people at once:

Jeff, no problemo my racist buddy, your Haji friend here is very happy, now go back and watch some useless sitcom like a good American.

Allah's cousin: You have an argument going, but I think u r wrong by saying that they left to where they were back 1,000 years ago - the struggle is not ideological at all, all the Shiites ever wanted was that the Caliphate was to be in the house of Ali, which is (the caliphate) nowhere to be seen right now? it is a struggle of power masqueraded by religion; Shiites are killing each other in the southern area just as they are fighting with Sunnis above. Baathists are alleged with crazed al-Qaeda, who are fortunately Sunnis, into 'removing occupation'. If al-Qaeda managed to control a bit of land and declare it an actual Islamic Emirate, then believe me the Baathists will turn against them and fight them just as furiously as they are fighting 'occupation' now.

as Frank Zappa said once, "We're all in it for the money".

Ella: You are probably right, except on one point, Wahhabis and Shiites have long-standing enmity, Wahabbis think visiting graves is a heathen act, while visting graves is integral in Shiite worship - A large group of important Islamic figures, many of which are very reverred by Shiites, are in al-Baqee'a cemetery, near Mecca - which is currently under the ruling of the Wahhabi Saud house, the Baqee'a cemetery was closed and I think even ravaged by Wahhabis, somewhere around the year 1925, in a day now called in Shiite doctrine 'The Day of Grievance'. But as for the oil and all, that's probably what's REALLY behind it all, as I said, most Arabs today do not hold Islam dearly to their hearts as you might think, it's just old feuds being used for power.

Jeffrey said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jeffrey said...

Kid, if you liked the jacked-up numbers from the Lancet study, you'll adore what an American photographer said in an interview conducted by Mister Ghost over at IBC:

Mister Ghost: Are you optimistic about the future of Iraq's children?

Bill Putnam: No, I'm afraid not. Life for them in the forseeable future is going to be hell
.

It's a blunt, honest interview with a photographer just returned from the sandbox.

*

Jeffrey said...

By the way, Morbid Smile is now safely in the US for college. She just put up a new blog entry. Check it out, especially those of you who have followed her blog since she became eligible for the Fullbright. It's a happy ending -- and a happy beginning, I believe.

*

annie said...

oh my, i get a little work done and come back to so much shitstorm... where to start ??

I am sorry to hear about your friends who were killed. And I am sorry you are being overly emotional about this subject.

yes, reminds me of when my sister died, it was suggetsed i not become so emotional. hmm , what are emotions for? if your soul mates die and one cannot be real about it, when can one be real. i suppose if we weren't supposed to feel pain, we wouldn't be wired for it.

nothing is overly for the ones you love. thank you so much for sharing it w/us, espeacially funeralmarch. no words describe how this brought the pain of iraq to me. nothing thus far in all the horrible days. the sound and soul. never let one rob , or stiffel your voice.

I merely said there was no cohesion behind "Iraq's" various sects from day one, precisely because it-is-artificial.

this is part of the propaganda 101, more later on that.

Artificial carve-ups by past Imperial powers.

let me guess, you think it should be carved up, nom artificially?

so I would ask you very kindly to have a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up.

kid, you are going to have to change your name, you are not sounding very confused anymore!!

Like it or not, Iraq was selo-taped together. There is no cohesion.

sound familiar? propaganda 101, more on that later!

how about if ITM aggrees to join Iraqi Blogodrome and when they do you say sorry

how about if ITM aggrees to join Iraqi Blogodrome and when they do they say i'm sorry?

The Lancett publication was not based on hospital/medical reports, as are standard with such reports.

got any supporting docs for that? i didn't think so. have them adjust the manual, this shit doesn't fly.

kid, i'm sure you can hear it by now, but please bear w/me. partly i am writing this just to let them know we are on to their game.

propaganda 101.

it used to be democracy (after WMD). they aren't pedaling that line anymore because they are working in lockstep and he new page is DIVIDE THE COUNTRY

between here and the other iraqi blog comment section i hear a drumbeat... sounds like

"sunni's and shia have been waiting to get at eachothers throats for centuries" maybe i'm paraphrasing, remember, he couldn't back it up?


"Iraq was selo-taped together. There is no cohesion. Yes I understand that we all wish it could be so, but history corrects us all. This is the reality dude."

The current conflict between Sunni and Shia etc, is precisely because there was never NO conflict between them!

let me guess, never no means always?


Hey guys! I have a great idea! Lets make this country called Iraq where all of us live together, both sunnis and shias. Oh and lets throw in the Kurds too."

Probably not.


so here we have 101. can you here them, they want iraq divided and the way they are doing it is trying to rewrite history to erase reality of sunni's and shia loveing and living side by side w/ conflicts they are/have nurturing/nurtured.

this is called AGENDA, read a clean break.

it really doesn't matter how they accomplish it, it only matters it it happens. all the better if you and all iraqis believe it came from within. here is a realistic account of what they understand. ie.. nothing

notice how they all move in tandum?

agenda 101

1. divide iraq
a. convince them it is because sunnis and shites are enemies
b. tell them history put two otherwise waring factions together

2. why can't you be like the kurds?

3. you must like sadam if you don't like the occupatiom

4. divide iraq

5 divide iraq

6. sunni's and shia have never gotten along

7. never mention badr militia when mentioning the others

8. all roads of wrong lead to AQ and sadr

9. divide iraq

10. why can't you be like the kurds?

11. don't ever mention israel

12. its always iraqi on iraqi, americans are not responsible.

annie said...

whoops, i forgot

13 divide the middle east into lots of lttle waring factions so they kill eachother off so the US doesn't have to do it.

Allah's Cousin said...

Wow Annie.

Damned if I do, damned if I dont. I give an opinion, and I suddenly have an "agenda"?

... I think you have an agenda by virtue of labelling anyone who disagrees with you as "having an agenda". Confusing? In other words - you cant take dissenting opinion at face value - it must be some conspiracy.

Look. There are historical facts. Britain created Iraq, like they created Kuwait, (big oil well there), like they created lebanon out of Syria, (actually the French did), like they created Jordan, etc. Thats a fact.

My statement isnt that shias and sunnis cant inherently get along. I have seen with my own two eyes families that get along. Kid has a point when he says its a modern power struggle infused with old hatred. Know how when we want dirt on someone, we go way way back? Its similar.

Im not saying that I do not hope it all comes together. One of the reasons the US is successful, is precisely because many many different cultures can live and co-exist side by side. In other words, it CAN happen, and it IS possible.

But Iraq is different. It was literally, created in a room in the British foreign office, over a pencil and paper. The lead drew a line on the paper in Britain, and suddenly a couple million shias and a couple million sunnies and a couple million kurds were under one King overnight all the way in Mesopatamia. Groups that would never have wanted anything to do with each other on the political arena because they hadnt matured enough yet, were now all the sudden sitting under one roof, each with their own opinion on what the religion of the king should be. Then a strong man came to power the shut everyone up. And now we're here.

Now if you want to spin this, and accuse me of having "an agenda", be my guest. Shows how much ammo you have Annie.

I dont pretend to know everything. No one does. But I can correlate things I experience, learned, and have seen. And this is what I see, and this is my opinion on the matter.

-Allah's Cousin

Katrin said...

MixMax,

I must apologise to have overlooked your answer. Too many Jeffreys et al in here :-(

There is one aspect you mentioned about the Kurds:
At the end the main two factions decided to unite against extremism and fight Ansar Al Islam. The rest is history

Then you stopped because you didn't want to divert from the main issue. But isn't this a clue that might spare the rest of Iraq having to suffer for 12 years until the gap is finally closed?

I'm aware that Saddam was a secular despot who only discovered religion when in suited him as a political instrument. So his being Sunni (I thought he became a Shia in 1981?) is no explanation for the actual violence.

I admire that you bloggers refuse to be divided and insist upon being Iraqis in the first place. But looking at the polls (I've been following them since 2003) I see a different tendency. Is it possible that Syria and Iran are successfull in splitting up the society?

What puzzles me most is the Shia being a lot more optimistic than the Sunni, however Sadr goes on spreading violence. Today I read that the Medhis conquered Amara. That's were the Brits withdrew, isn't it?

I read your blog and you're right: the Iraqi people deserve a better future. I totally disagree with those who paint a picture of Iraq being an uncivilised society. On the contrary, you're outstanding not only in the ME.

And I apologise to my defending the Americans without distinguishing. What I learned about them in the blogs these days leaves me stupified. Seems like 9/11 has radicalized and polarised them more than I thought.

Jeffrey said...

Iraq Pundit presents evenhanded commentary on the recent Iraqi blogger dust-up over the Lancet report.

*

The Sanity Inspector said...

Thanks so much for the roundup of blogposts, from all sides. I'm gonna link that.

I am glad to see the emergence of an Iraqi blogosphere, as Jeff Jarvis predicted years ago.

I would like to be optimistic about the chances of democracy taking root in Iraq, but it's hard. I do not believe that Arab society is incapable of forming a democratic society with universal enfranchisement. However, it seems that Arab societies are not predisposed towards democracy, othewise democracies would have emerged by themselves before now.

I just hope this fratricidal bloodlust burns itself out soon.

Jeffrey said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jeffrey said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jeffrey said...

This post by a suspect individual is being scrutinized by the blog administrator.

annie said...

I give an opinion, and I suddenly have an "agenda"?

no no no AC, that was not my point , not at all, really, really, it wasn't.
this was never, is not about YOU having an agenda. i simply used your statement as a perfect example of what the AGENDA is for the neocon zionists and their respective minions in the blogisphere.
do you know why i know this? because over and over and over again in the last couple weeks (as if some authority had zeroed in on hundreds of rightwing bloggers at the same time and instructed them) i keep hearing this....

read it very s l o w l y so you can really hear it ... are you ready....

It was literally, created in a room in the British foreign office, over a pencil and paper. The lead drew a line on the paper in Britain, and suddenly a couple million shias and a couple million sunnies and a couple million kurds were under one King overnight all the way in Mesopatamia. Groups that would never have wanted anything to do with each other on the political arena because they hadnt matured enough yet, were now all the sudden sitting under one roof, each with their own opinion on what the religion of the king should be. Then a strong man came to power the shut everyone up. And now we're here.

you see, can you hear it (again). why am i hearing this over and over?

the reason we are hearing it is one could view this as saying, you guys don't need to be altogether just because some british guy said so now do you??? why don't you be good little iraqis and divide yourselves up in lots of little quite reasonable states the way you really want to since as you know you have never really gotten along???

so AC (and i refuse to call you that stupid name) if the shoe fits put it on. we will all just believe that you quite coincidentally are repeating what every neocon blogger whether named miss oh so sweet from germany or ms resonable from indiana or whatever.. that you all just happen to want to keep repeating this.

instead of listening to what iraqis want. today. in present time. ever wonder what our forefathers would have thought of this scheming?

"What American federalists feared most, in fact, was that dissolution of the existing, weak, national union would be followed by the creation of just such a system of regional confederacies (most scenarios foresaw a Southern, a Mid-Atlantic and a New England bloc of states.) They glumly predicted that these blocs would end up perpetually at war with each other -- like the rival alliances of petty city states in ancient Greece or Renaissance Italy. Even worse, they would be ripe for the plucking by imperial powers bent on reestablishing their dominion in the New World. As Alexander Hamilton put it in Federalist No. 6:

"A man must be far gone in Utopian speculations who can seriously doubt that, if these States should either be wholly disunited, or only united in partial confederacies, the subdivisions into which they might be thrown would have frequent and violent contests with each other. . . To look for a continuation of harmony between a number of independent, unconnected sovereignties is the same neighborhood, would be to disregard the uniform course of human events, and to set at defiance the accumulated experience of the ages."

This is, however, precisely the system that the powers-that-be in Iraq are trying to create. And the Cheney administration is either helping them do it, or has decided it has no choice but to go along for the ride.

The fact that the global superpower has stamped its imperial seal of approval on a constitution that would greatly faciliate foreign meddling in Iraq's internal affairs isn't likely to go unnoticed in the Arab world -- or the Islamic one. The Cheney administration has just ratified every Salafist or Arab nationalist propaganda point about the ultimate U.S. objective in Iraq. It has endorsed, or at least has appeared to endorse, the dismembering of a potentially powerful Arab state."


do i think you have an agenda AC?

oh no, i would never accuse YOU of that, i'm sure its just a coincidence you and all your cohorts keep druming the same beat.

annie said...

ps the prez is supported by 30% of americans. that 30% includes all your red state illiterates, christian nutcases, and some old folks. skim off those guys and whats left, maybe 15%.


that was me, earlier, billmon just linked to an interesting graph..

check this out

see what i mean. the zionist/neocon agenda bloggers here are speaking for a minority who are pushing american foriegn policy in a direction most american do not want to go in.

Allah's Cousin said...

"oh no, i would never accuse YOU of that, i'm sure its just a coincidence you and all your cohorts keep druming the same beat."

So now I have "cohorts"? heheh. Jesus! What else do you know about me?? This is getting interesting. But tell me. Just what "beat" am I drumming to? How is saying "WWI started in 1914", if its simply a historical fact? Hmm? In a similar vain, I have said that Iraq was artificial. Fact. Peoples who would have never voluntarily wanted to have anything to do with each other in the political arena were now part of one Nationality. How is that a "drum beat"? This is a problem in your little head. Someone says something, and you think "I wonder who he's playing ball for". What if its just my personal opinion?

I am definately not a NeoCon. Or Zionist. (or Liberal for that matter). I spent alot of time speaking out against the two. You need to hold your emotions back for this one.

Idealy, yes, I would hope for one country, or one planet, were someone's sect or religion or race is just some curiosity. As I said before, the US is a nice example precisely because the FF achieved that. So I know its possible. I really hope we become one big happy fucking planet some day. I would LIKE to see the same thing Iraq. But what I am saying is that it cannot be forced them, artificially. This is how cultures mature, and it takes time. One day their own FF will "unite the tribes" so to speak.

Imagine if you will that you travel back to France in the year 1100 AD, and tell them that you have this great idea, that France and Germania and England and Espania and Rome are to be united, because afterall our religious/ethnic differences are minor. What do you think would happen? (Yes its a GREAT idea, no doubt!) But in reality, they'll probably look at you funny and guillotine you. Why? Because they havent gotten that level of political maturity yet. It took them, literally, 1000 years, and too many wars to count, and now we have a semi-federalist EU.

Thats my point.

-Allah's Couin

Anonymous said...

"I really hope we become one big happy fucking planet some day." -AC

Amen, my friend, amen.

annie said...

well. i hope we become one fucking happy planet.

speaking of fucking the planet, wouldn't it be great if we used less oil.

Anonymous said...

well, yes annie, it would be great. if we could somehow find a good way of disposing of nuclear waste, then nuclear energy is the way to go: much less damaging to the planet's atmosphere and to people's health.

but I do mean it when I say that my hope is, although seemingly out of reach if you have people like Jeffrey, to be one big happy f*cking planet. honest.

-Concerned Iraqi

Jeffrey said...

The dream of "one big happy family" is for morons.

Conflict will ALWAYS be with us.

Why?

Infinite desires.

Finite resources.

Annie's Kumbaiya is just whistling past the graveyard.

*

annie said...

kid, last night your comment section was down , worried me greatly. glad to see you're up and running.

gandhi said...

Lest we forget, Villars and Jarvis helped set up ITM and lots of other Iraqi blogs.

The USA does not control the Iraqi blogsphere, but certain people do their best to control how US voters experience it.

CuriousHamster said...

Good work, Mr Kid. I wish you peace.

anne, way upstream you linked to an article "discrediting" the Lancet report in the WSJ. As you were talking about agendas, I suspect you'll be interested to know that the author, Steven E. Moore, worked for Truth About Iraq, "a website established to promote a positive view of the U.S. military role in Iraq in contrast to that presented by most other media sources". That website is no longer online but that and the fact that he worked for Paul Bremer ought to be considered when reading his article.

The WSJ has quite a habit of overlooking partisan Republican credentials in their descriptions of their "political consultant" columnists. Sad but true.

Rick said...

Does anyone in Iraq blame Iran for the continuing, violently spirallying out of control violence?

Rick

annie said...

curious anne, way upstream you linked to an article "discrediting" the Lancet report in the WSJ.

i believe it was monica who linked to that silly editorial. @ 10:55 this was my debunking.

if you scroll to the bottom of the article it says the guy is a political consultant. i heard he also offers excellent deals on heart transplants and vasectomies. perhaps some of the people here who eagerly except scientific opinion from political hacks would like to volunteer to have their dicks operated on by the guy?

annie said...

Does anyone in Iraq blame Iran for the continuing, violently spirallying out of control violence?

you might find this interesting.

US support for SCIRI. There was aggressive US support for the SCIRI candidate in the long-drawn-out dispute over appointment of a Prime Minister during the winter and spring of 2006.The question-mark that hung over this issue is still there: Why would the US support the candidate of the party generally recognized as closest to Iran? And the answer will turn out to be: It is because he supported federalism and opposed the nationalist trend of the Sadrists and others. (Eventually there was a compromise in the person of Nuri al-Maliki, who, as it is now clear to see, was just the person to stand aside and let the federalism campaign take its course under the guidance of SCIRI leader Hakim).

annie said...

Truth About Iraq, "a website established to promote a positive view of the U.S. military role in Iraq

not to be confised w/ truth about iraqis a superb being, our comrad, w/whom i am in complete solidarity.

waldschrat said...

Perhaps I am wrong but my own suspicion is that the Lancet survey was released shortly before the US elections rather than at some other time because it was intended to have a propaganda effect on those elections.

Regarding the outrage of Iraqi bloggers against ITM, the writers of ITM are entitled to express any opinion they choose.

Regarding the Lancet casualty estimate, anecdotal evidence is notoriously unreliable becuase of the unreliability of both the anecdotes and the interpretation of them. Considering that Iraq is a country wheer suffering and death are considered political tools by the indigent population, a serious bias to the high side is totally plausible.

Regarding any move by ITM to de-link their blog from people who oppose their opinions and insult them, I find it reasonable and predictable.

Bruno said...

[Jeffrey] “I'm hoping we can get Tiger to tee off from the Lake of Tranquillity.”

I’m hoping that one day, when Jeffrey finally cracks open a book on natural history, he will realize that the Sea of Tranquility is a sea and not a lake. You pick on people for their spelling, and I’ll pick on you for your ignorance. How’s that?



[lynnette] “And Kid, you got off lightly with the de-linking thing. If you had said some of the things you did to Zeyad your ass would have been grass.”

Then again, Zeyad is not exactly a neocon drone-head like the ITM monkeys are. He is able to dilute his ideas with a dose of reality, unlike the “see no evil, hear no evil” ITM bloggers. I doubt Kid would ever have CAUSE to go off at somebody like Zeyad.



[Allahs Cousin] “One must ask oneself, how any self-respecting Arab can have a link to little-green-footballs to begin with. ITM is pathetic, and a minority.”

EXACTLY. It’s like a black linking to a KKK site. Completely illogical, unless you absolutely hate yourself.

While I understand and agree with you about your remarks of Iraq being an artificial entity, one should also acknowledge that Mesapotamia HAS had an autonomous culture since forever. And one should also ask oneself: is the process of fracturing being instigated by outside forces, and what advantage would a fractured Iraq have for them? I prefer Iraq whole, and I prefer Iraq strong.

Bruno said...

[katrin] “But to me it remains the human drama: without determined force against religious fanatics that bristle with weapons”

Which is of course why the US allied itself with the religious fanatics in the Badr Brigade, trained their men, armed them and put them into the police force where they created the devil’s own mess. It’s why the US recruited all the Mukhabarat agents it could lay its hands on, and made them the core of Iraq’s new intelligence agency. I guess that to resist these and other fanatics (such as the Neocons) force really is needed. Sad.



[Roderick] “I find the Lancet study's figures to be suspect because the numbers are suspiciously high. This numbers issue should not be confused with the more important issue of Iraqi civilian casualties, which must be staggering, even if well short of 655,000.”

I find the numbers of the Holocaust to be suspiciously high. The number must be staggering even though it must be well short of 6.5 million.

How does that sound on the ears, hm?



[monica] “Those aren't mutually exclusive things - the study can be wrong and the number of Iraqi deaths can be high (just not 655,000).”

It’s possible. Which is precisely why Burnham et al have called for an even BIGGER INTERNATIONAL study on Iraqi mortality in order to confirm or deny these results. Funny how all the good little wingnuts can rant and rave about the Burnham study but when it comes to supporting the calls for a larger inquest into Iraqi mortality they are stone deaf and dead silent. Iraqi lives are cheaply dismissed and quickly forgotten in some quarters, it seems.

Bruno said...

[rick] “Does anyone in Iraq blame Iran for the continuing, violently spirallying out of control violence?”

My gut keeps telling me Iran is involved, but every time I check, the facts are that their material assistance to the violence is little to nothing. Their proxies in Iraq, SCIRI and the Badr Brigade, managed, through Chalabi, to ally themselves with the US and get their hands on more money and guns than they need. When Iran gets involved, you’ll know about it.



[Italian] “the report used the CIA estimate for the mortality rate before the invasion”

With respect, I think the Guardian got it wrong. The Burnham study can be downloaded from the Lancet, and it is clear that they derived their own mortality rate before the invasion from the very same people from which they derived the post war mortality rate.



[tom villars] “Of the Iraqi bloggers you listed, how many are Sunni? I'm assuming close to 100%, but I don't want to guess.”

Aaah, that goddamn Sunni bias. These creeps just wanna fool you. So, what would a Shia say about the situation?

Let’s see, a nice ex-pro-occupation Shiite Iraqi special, coming right up for you:


[hammorabbi] “Three years passed for the occupation of Iraq and this country sunk in seas of blood, darkness and death.

Even the hope for democracy and freedom declined day after day and replaced by dreams about minimum standard of security. The phantom of death is everywhere and anywhere. No one can grantee his life even in his own bedroom. The interference of the Afghani origin (terrorist-biased) American ambassador Z. K. Zada in the formation of the new government exposed the blemished game of the process and its hidden face.

The plight of corruption became epidemic everywhere in Iraq. Even the oil plundered with the help of those in power or burnt by terrorists. Ministers in the previous interim government escaped with millions of dollars to the West. During Paul Bremer rule many other millions missed and no one know where and how?” //end

There ya have it, the voice of truth. How things change, huh?

CuriousHamster said...

Apologies anne, you are quite correct. I was slightly confused by the fact that you'd linked to that hackery. It makes much more sense now that I see you didn't.

I blame the fact that I get the red mist whenever I spot the WSJ deliberately exclude information which they should supply to their readers, but particulary when it is over a matter as serious as this.

annie said...

And one should also ask oneself: is the process of fracturing being instigated by outside forces, and what advantage would a fractured Iraq have for them?

America dictating the Iraqi partition scheme"

"Open Bidding for Import of new Rulers for the Democratic Iraq". Actually the bidding hasn't started yet, but this is the threat the journalist says Condoleeza Rice brought with her on her recent visit to the Green Zone. ....

The editorialist says this isn't just a case of feeling our way, of the free play of domestic politics. On the contrary this is "literally the application of the American wishes", for a division into sect- and race-based regions. It was already their policy in the Bremer era. And the extraordinary efforts that went into passage of the bill [in the famous disputed vote of October 11] appears to have been the result of specific instructions from Rice during her visit of Oct 7. The idea is to first partition Iraq, and then to partition the rest of the region, to produce what they are calling the "New" or the "Greater" Middle East.


Censoring Iraq ? Don't blame the media

This information blockade is occurring at the same time that the Pentagon is outsourcing millions of dollars to public relations firms to shape the news....

"We don't turn down embeds at all. When we get a request, it may be very specific or broader. We go to the unit involved. They manage their own embeds. We don't force them to take anyone; we're not going to force anyone to interact with media. We may offer advice and talk to them about their reasoning. In the end, we respect the wishes of the unit." Walt and I both had requests, and in each case the commanders had put their wishes in writing. In both cases, Johnson denied the embeds.

annie said...

curious, i didn't even read the wsj piece, i scrolled to the bottom and considered the source. i'm not bothering to read any bleeting coming from the other side on this issue, it's totally meaningless.

During Paul Bremer rule many other millions missed and no one know where and how?

last night 60 minutes (popular tv) carried a story about the missing billions that'disappeared' during the cpa days. bremmer hired this iraqi plumber living in poland to be in charge of appropriations. the tv host ask him if he had any previous experience in accounting, no he didn't. (that in itself is rather odd don't you think?) bremmersent him to some brush up course in DC for 2 weeks, they sent him back to cpa and gave him billions to play with. he 'lost it'. why do i think this sounds a little fishy? another odd anomaly about the report.. it seemed to focus on the dishonesty of this plumber and another guy in jordan, and never turned the spotlight on bremmer. who the h** gives some plumber all that money. it's literally enough to buy your own army.

hey, maybe i'm on to something?? ya think? i wonder of anyone else has thought of this? come to think of it, that missing 2-3 trillion from DOD never showed up either....

annie said...

oh my! i'm shocked! story @ la times w/this intriguing line

"Are U.S. troops equipping Iraq's sectarian avengers? "

apparently i am not the only one to consider such nefariousness from our ever so moral administration. now what on earth could be the reason for this? perhaps the iraqi people will become so exhausted from the horrors of war dividing the country will seem like a godsend. sorry for the triple posts kid, i'll shut up for awhile.

Anonymous said...

I just read how SCIRI and the DAWA parties pushed through the partitioning vote without any support from the Al Sadr shia or any of the Sunni parties. Neocon lapdog Allowi had 5 of his pms vote with them. They couldn’t have done it without the Bushies help. Al Qaida, Iran, Israel and the neocons all pushing for the same thing.

Who blew up the Al Askari mosque or golden dome sacred to both Shia AND Sunnis? Why did we send Negraponte and Steele, who cut their teeth training the death squads in Central America ,to work with the SCIRI dominated government while they were forming their death squads? Why are our guys fighting the Sadrists in Baghdad now? Is it a coincidence that they are the major Shia group that does NOT want to partition Iraq? Is divide and conquer some new concept that is too advanced for AlQaida or the neocons to conceive of? And that’s not what they’re doing?

How can anyone support this division? Have you heard of a poll that asks the Iraqis if they want to break up their country and they said yes? What percentage of the population do you think wants to fight this civil war? Where will the thee quarter of a million Christians go? How about the Turkmen? What about the millions of secular westernized Iraqis from all backgrounds? Which of the Islamic state partitions do they belong in? And the mixed marriage families? Where do they go?

If dividing the country makes sense there, maybe it would make sense here too. I mean, we’ve got groups that have had trouble getting along with each other for ages too. Maybe that would solve all OUR problems. Let’s see, the Latinos could form a mega-state in the southwest that would be heavily influenced by Mexico. We could split off a giant bible belt country in the south. We could make north central Nordicland. We’d have to figure out where we’d put all the Black people. They’re kind of spread out now. Maybe give them Georgia, Virginia, D.C. and part of the rust belt. I guess we could give the Jews a split state- most of NY and Fla. But wait, then we’d have to cleanse the Cubans and Puerto Ricans and send them to Latino land. They might not be happy with that. I guess we could make one giant Native American reservation? Do we need a state for Catholics, or Atheists or Scientologists? or one for -Crap, this is getting too complicated.

Maybe Lincoln was right. We shouldn’t split up the country. It would only cause hell here and benefit our enemies. Splitting up Iraq will certainly not benefit Iraqis. Don’t pretend it will.

Anonymous said...

Neocon lapdog Allowi had 5 of his pms vote with them.

Wasn't it - 8 parliament members of Allawi's (CIA funded) party "accidently" did not boycott the vote - exactly the number needed to push it through?

Anonymous said...

Maybe Lincoln was right.

Don't get them all excited, I'm sure that name has a different meaning for some of the posters on this thread...

(paycheck?)

opit said...

Divide and conquer.
That is all it is about.
Hate and ignorance pass as the qualities needed to "fit in" in the cult being cynically bred in the U.S. today. They are no threat to those in power because they are too stupified to understand their world and how they are being used.
The Texans in power are in a place which exists as a result of violence, rebellion and genocide.
They have inherited a system which has enslaved people while seeming innocent : based on deceit and ruthlessness. Not to mention ingrained bigotry.
Turkey has no wish for a separate Kurd country next door. They are a lot closer than the U.S.A. The Kurds need an Iraq to be part of or violence is likely. Washington knows this.
It is much easier to set up a situation in which people kill each other than go to the trouble ( and blame ) of doing it all yourself. I honestly suspect Dick Cheney of being a person who would push this.
Iraqis need each other desperately. The enemy at the gate ( huh, inside the walls ) is too cunning and vicious to allow anything but a united people to get rid of him. That is why all the talk of hate and distrust. It is an attack on peoples' pride to beat them with. Those small and vicious enough to only try and save themselves can bring the country to destruction.

Betty said...

Don't let anyone get away with minimizing the deaths of people in Iraq, it does a disservice to those that died.

Fed Up American said...

When will Iraqis finally step up and govern themselves and enforce the peace in their country so that we can bring our troops home?

Iraqi Mojo said...

I was also surprised by ITM's opinion on the Lancet study. I wonder if they read it. According to the report, two thirds of violent deaths have been caused by suicide bombers, car bombs, road side bombs, etc., presumably carried out by the 'resistance' - ITM should have read the study and discussed the fact that most Iraqis are being killed by other Iraqis and non-Iraqi Muslims. US troops have also killed many Iraqis, but I am quite surprised by the number of Iraqis who've been killed by Arabs, by Muslims. Why so much hatred? I hope the US leaves soon, and I hope then Iraqis will be able to reconcile.

Anonymous said...

ITM should have read the study and discussed the fact that most Iraqis are being killed by other Iraqis and non-Iraqi Muslims.

why? why discuss that 'fact'? why not discuss 'fact' that until the US invaded, totally disbanded the army and the entire infrastructure iraq was a drastically more stable society than it is today, people could go on living normal lives.

or better yet, skip all the 'facts' except maybe the one that says this is a horrible tragic loss.

maybe the point here is that everyone wants the message of their 'fact' out there of politicizing this loss. this message of 'why can't iraqis get along? comeon. get real. start / the american trained deathsquads, who could get along w/the amount of suffering they have endured, certainly not any civilized country. wat society could get along w/foriegner fighting terrorists in your back yard? quit blaming iraqis. it won't do any good.

sr said...

I didnt read the article in question ,but I support ITM anyway.Keep up the good work Omar.We love you.

bordergal said...

Here is another site that discusses casualties in Iraq. Their count is a max in the 50,000 range, and the methodology is different then the Lancet report.

"Casualty figures are derived from a comprehensive survey of online media reports and eyewitness accounts. Where these sources report differing figures, the range (a minimum and a maximum) are given. All results are independently reviewed and error-checked by at least two members of the Iraq Body Count project team in addition to the original compiler before publication".

It might be worth a visit for those who are interested in cross checking facts http://www.iraqbodycount.org/contacts.php.

Giordano said...

I understood ITM was a psy-op from the very beginning (read its name, people). My comments there were deleted, so I started roving about town to various internet cafes & universities sending fake effusive praise comments. Soon got tired of that joke (initials GB, HC, ID,JE, etc etc). Re BodyCount, it seems the bodycount blog feels they have lost face. [!swallow your pride guys!]
I'm not an expert, but in a chaotic situation its clear that death certificates issued by individual doctors will far exceed death counts at hospitals and in newspapers, if its dangerous to cross town or draw attention to yourself. I heard the Lancet author say that 98% (check this?) of the deaths reported were subsequently vallidated by death certificates. ie they asked about deaths, then after that, they asked to see death certificates.

Iraqi Mojo said...

"why? why discuss that 'fact'? why not discuss 'fact' that until the US invaded, totally disbanded the army and the entire infrastructure iraq was a drastically more stable society than it is today, people could go on living normal lives."

It was more stable before 2003, but Saddam's mafiosi have been mass murdering innocent Iraqis since 1980. The fedayeen Saddam and hardcore Baathists did not want a democratic Iraq - they and their Wahabi allies have done everything possible to make sure that the new Iraq would be a failure, and they've done a very good job of it.

"or better yet, skip all the 'facts' except maybe the one that says this is a horrible tragic loss."

That this is indeed a horrible tragic loss is a fact. So was the loss of a hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis due to sanctions. So was the loss of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis due to Gulf War I - I don't remember so many people being so concerned about Iraqis back then.

"maybe the point here is that everyone wants the message of their 'fact' out there of politicizing this loss. this message of 'why can't iraqis get along? comeon. get real."

Iraqis got along just fine until the Sunni Arab mafiosi of Saddam's regime started mass murdering Iraqis in 1980. What's been happening since 2003 is just a continuation - an escalation - of mass murders of Iraqi Shia, Kurds, and Sunni Arabs who want to be part of a democratic Iraq.

"quit blaming iraqis. it won't do any good."

Blaming anybody won't do any good, but let's be honest - it was the Sunni Arab mafiosi and their Wahabi allies who escalated the attacks on Iraqi Shia, and the Shii militias started retaliating after two years of suicide bombings murderous attacks on the Iraqi govt. Blaming them might not do any good, but they do deserve blame.

MiwiTheKiwi said...

All of this really puzzles me. Konfused Kid has collected a range of Iraqi viewpoints, and contrasted them with another Iraqi viewpoint. That seems a reasonable and interesting thing to do.

And then many non-Iraqis have, in a variety of ways, suggested that some of the opinions are incorrect, don't tally with each other, or have changed over time.

What is that about guys? Surely in our own countries, most of which are safe, and in most of which we have been able to publicly air, modify and refine our political opinions throughout our lives, we are not always consistent? Surely we disagree with our compatriots? Surely we take different viewpoints on the validity of published statistics? Surely we advocate for our rights to do all these things?

But Iraq has been liberated. The Iraqi people had to be careful what political opinions they expressed in Saddam's day. In their sudden and bounteous freedom, they are supposed to reach through the weirdness of their lives and think as consistent clones? I can see how that wouldn't freak us out. Yeah, now I have thought this through, I can see what all you guys were getting at after all.

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Today I wrote the saddest song,
In my mementos tag and tab it;
But neither will nor voice is strong
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It told about the sins of men
In vacuous lives, a lengthy prison
Term as though serving, after when
Nor freedom brings revision.

For they were such as did commit
Extremest of fraternal folly
Upon their peers and brethren--it
Was hardly ever holy.

These they defamed, and furthermore
With all did press their sinful calling
Engaging in an unjust war,
All sides reduced to crawling.

Perhaps some few retained their souls
Unscatherd--but e´en the best as baddest
Escaped not detrimental holes,
Wherefore the song was saddest.

It told of many joys reduced,
Distorted, pummeled into tatters,
As euphemistic words enthused
Wholly confused the matters.

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