Tuesday, January 22, 2008

Parliament Approves Interim New Iraqi Flag (constantly updated)

I have nothing to do today and snow is eating up Amman today. So I'll just this post as things progress.

The Kurds did it, the Iraqi parliament today approved a new interim design to be approved for one year with a majority of 110 out of 275, 100 MPs were absent from the session. The new flag drops out the stars only.


By the way, the "Allah" in this flag looks suspiciously similar to Allah in this flag:


Supposedly, the three stars represent the three Ba'ath Party slogans: Unity, Freedom and Socialism, in reality, the stars reflect those of Egypt and Syria at the time, Iraq yearned to be the third state to join the United Arab Republic (whose flag was an exact replica with only two stars) - Maybe Saddam changed it later to the Ba'athi slogans, but that doesn't matter now, the only thing that matters is that the Kurds had their say and strutted their stuff.

The news is all over the satellite channels, Iraq's supposedly best channel, al-Shariqya, had an item that tried hard not to puke all over, it showed its intention laughably with the closing line: "All the countries of the regions have stars or crescents in their flags, except Iran." Talk about professionalism!

83 comments:

nadia n said...

That's even more retarded than the first idea. Also you can say lots of things about the party of god, but they had great graphic designers, I'll give them that.

nadia n said...

"All the countries of the regions have stars or crescents in their flags, except Iran."

And the Shah's old flag and the Saudi one are the only ones with swords: CONTROVERSIAL.

Jeffrey said...

Hey, if you guys still consider yourself to be under US "occupation," why not just use the Ol' Red, White, and Blue Stars and Stripes? What could be more beautiful than that?

You just need to make one adjustment. Instead of 50 white stars, just use 18 for the 18 governates. If you're feeling wicked, you can use 19 stars as a dig at Kuwait, the so-called 19th governate of Iraq -- heh heh heh. Hey, later, when Kurdistan secedes, then you just need to remove a few stars. Simple.

I would love to visit Iraq and see a modified STARS and STRIPES flapping in the breeze over Firdus Square.

Think about it.

You can use our national anthem too. "Oooooh, say can you SEE, by the DAWN's early LIGHT, ..."

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Konfused Kid said...

kuss 7abibak jeffrey.

Jeffrey said...

Kid,

Glad you like my idea!

Hey, get your guitar and join me in singing this song:

O say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?


Beautiful, Kid! I really liked your guitar arrangement, especially the addition of "Oriental" appeggio.

If I didn't exist, Kid, you KNOW you'd have to invent me to keep you guys hopping mad like Yosemite Sam (another cartoon from Warner Bros., about whom oyu seem to have studied for your Ph.D.), so I'm assuming the reference is not obscure.

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CMAR II said...

kid,

If the Iraqi government is going stop favoring Arabs (at least officially) then the stars have to go. They are reasonably quite repugnant to non-Arabs. It has nothing to do with the Kurds "strutting their stuff".

On the other hand, if one would prefer that Kurdistan declare itself an independent state, then he should just say so.

I imagine that all those Arab refugees that go to Sulaymaniya where women can be doctors and wear jeans on the job don't consider the loss of the three stars to be any big loss (whether they stand for Ba'athism or Pan-Arabism).

Kurdistan the Model?

Konfused Kid said...

jeffrey, why don't you go visit the Fadhil brothers, the hoot comedians, they're in your great country now. I bet they'd kiss your ignorant ass more affectionately.

cmar, well, i dont think the current flag can make both sides happy, so far everyone i've heard from is quite in distaste, and the flag hasn't changed much so that the Kurds would embrace it.

CMAR II said...

[kid] "the flag hasn't changed much so that the Kurds would embrace it"

Well, its an interim design, isn't it? I presume, that as Iraqis discover that the world didn't come to an end with the loss of the Pan-Arabist/Ba'athist stars, they will move on to other issues: Perhaps they will return the Kurdish yellow sun to the Iraqi flag that was stripped out in 1963. Hopefully, they will remove any designation that appears to approve of Pan-Islamism as well (assuming, as I infer, that you think the Allah reference does that).

The Allawi government tried changing the flag in one jump, and it got a lot of peoples' panties in a wad.

Just like Sunni/Shi'a Arab reconcilliation, this will happen incrementally. And that's for the best, right? It is more likely to last that way.

Jeffrey said...

Kid,

I read your remarks over at the Iraqi Blogodrome. I generally agree with your comments about the design of the flag. You had some pretty good rebuttals to Khalid Jarrar. Along with several other Iraqis in the discussion, you argue for minority rights being respected in Iraq (Christian rights, for example, in this case -- like Fayrouz and others) by NOT including the "Allah Akbar" on the flag. This naturally sent Khalid into a splenetic rage. He got pretty nasty with you in particular. Khalid is really the Yosemite Sam of your group, isn't he?

On another thread there, I read how you "hate" the Fadhils. I just don't understand that, to tell you the truth. I have met Omar and he's an articulate Iraqi patriot, no question about that. You demean yourself with this irrational, pig-headed hatred for these three brothers.

*

CMAR II said...

[jeffrey] On another thread there, I read how you "hate" the Fadhils.

Kid,

Any follow-up on the ITM bloggers now being proved right about the phony Lancet report's assessment of the number of Iraqi's killed since Saddam was deposed? (And, ergo, the many Iraqi blogger who vented about them being proved wrong?)

programmer craig said...

kuss 7abibak jeffrey.

I actually understand one of those words! How about 7abibak? Is that the opposite of 7abibi?

CMAR II said...

[programmer craig] How about 7abibak?

Opposite to normal people, I tend to learn curse words last. I thought 7abibak meant "lover". So, wild guess, it means "F.U., c**t"?

Anonymous said...

please just keep the old flag last star can be justice or god instead of socalism :)

anyways that looks to much like a thing from a girls magazine

so maybe sanfran will pick it up :D

Reminder said...

Kid, Do not water the fungus. They are just trying to annoy you.

CMAR II said...

Kid,

I just posted on this thread and your excellent round-up of Iraqi blogger opinion regarding the ITM blog. Leave a comment and tell me what you think.

lelly said...

yes! finally I know how to swear in arabic!

reminder said...

KID, DO NOT WATER THE FUNGUS. DO NOT DIGNIFY THE IRAQ-OBSESSED AMERIKKKAN SHIT STIRRERS HERE WITH YOUR REPLIES. HOW DIFFERENT ARE THEY FROM HOLOCAUST DENIERS?

LET IGNORANCE BE IGNORED!

Konfused Kid said...

Okay, I realize the best reply is silence, but for the sake of general benefit I will reply.

Jeffrey,
First, I don't understand what's so worthy of ridicule about myself reverting back to liking Arabic music, the only reason a guy might find that funny is that he already has the prejudiced view that anything created by Arabs is only fit for one destination only: rubbish dump. if you think this way, which is quite evident in more than one place, then kuss 7abaybak, in the end, I am a Muslim Arab, and I'm quite proud of this just as the same as you are proud of being an American, I respect that, and I expect you to respect me in return, if you don't, then 3er bil zurf ili ummak wag3atak mina. Other than that, you're welcome here.
My rebuttal regarding the ITM brothers is motivated quite simply from this viewpoint, you think the only good Middle Eastern is a complacent puppy that has no real character of his own and who'd wag his tail for you at all points and circumstances, this is the only good Middle Eastern for you ; Most of the Iraqi bloggers, regardless of their intentions, had reacted most prominently not to the study itself but to ITM's sentimental, irrational reaction that was quite simply the equivalent of a dude pulling his hairs, even if Lancet was fabricated or whatever, that doesn't change the fact that ITM is just a voluntary mouthpiece for American policy, even if the Americans decide to put tree logs up their anus, you can count on the ITMs to hand-glad all the way (except Ali, who seem to have some sort of balance, which is why I hope he quit the blog) Riverbend disgusts me just as equally as ITM matter of fact ; they are both extremes, Khalid Jarrar may have a frenzied conservative extremist viewpoint on the world, but the ITM also have a frenzied extremist viewpoint of the world, only in the opposite direction. It's good to be open to the world, but one must also retain his identity as well.

Confused said...

I thought the whole problem with the flag was all the nasty pan-Arab *shudder* colors, but the colors are still there, and nothing was added to "represent" the Kurds. Hell even the part Saddam added himself is still there. So this is it, the whole problem was three harmless little stars? That's what all this fuss was about? Damn.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

lelly,

yes! finally I know how to swear in arabic!

Here are some milder sayings for you:

ya mutti = you donkey

ya gheby = you idiot

mu6y = dumb

You never know when they may come in handy. :D

reminder,

KID, DO NOT WATER THE FUNGUS. DO NOT DIGNIFY THE IRAQ-OBSESSED AMERIKKKAN SHIT STIRRERS HERE WITH YOUR REPLIES.

Let me guess, you are an undercover ad for Valium, right? Is your intent to bore the Kid's readers enough so they will discontinue reading him?

Granted, some comments by people can be over the top, but if you don't stand up for yourself and reply, you risk giving the impression that you are afraid or sulking. Neither is an impressive personality trait IMHO. And the Kid did quite well in his reply. Maybe you should let him be the judge of whether or not to responed, hmmmm?

Btw, "shit stirrers"? Friend of Suzie Q, are you?

Jeffrey,

If you want to check out an excellent Arabic singer, you should try this person. I know, he was Um Ayad's recommendation, but he is still very good. Strange, I don't agree with her politics, but I like her taste in music.

CMAR II said...

[Kid] It's good to be open to the world, but one must also retain his identity as well.

So what is "identity"? Is it necessary to hate America or GWB in order to be a "true Iraqi" and not be America's ass-kisser? Is it not possible to be an Iraqi and not believe that everything wrong with Iraq today is America's fault (or Iran's fault)? Is it not possible for a loyal Iraqi to step back objectively and honestly believe that Iraq has problems, the problems mostly come from Iraqis, and he's glad that he doesn't have a "strong man" to protect him from those problems. Is that denying one's Iraqi identity?


[Kid] Most of the Iraqi bloggers, regardless of their intentions, had reacted most prominently not to the [Lancet] study itself but to ITM's sentimental, irrational reaction...

But Kid, he was RIGHT about the Lancet study. Now maybe the only reason he was not susceptible last year to the deficiencies of the Lancet Study (many were obvious to casual objective readers) was because he was ideologically disinclined to any misery-mongering about Iraq...that is, because he was biased. But the bloggers who called the ITM boys "holocaust deniers", "traitors", etc. were no less biased in the other direction, and maybe that's why they were taken in by the Lancet Study.


[Kid] [ITM's response] was quite simply the equivalent of a dude pulling his hairs

The Lancet study itself was political propaganda that gleefully wrung every imaginable drop of blood from the Iraqi people in order to 1) make Saddam's regime look "not so bad", 2) to accomplish an American political end without concern for Iraqis. In October of 2006, the platform of the American opposition party was essentially: "To Hell With the Iraqis. Anything We Do to Help Makes Things Worse. Let's Get Out and Leave Them to Themselves" (which in October 2006 meant, leave them to Al-Qaeda and Iran). And the Lancet Study was designed to promote that AMERICAN political agenda. Why should any patriotic Iraqi not be outraged by that?


[Kid] even if Lancet was fabricated or whatever, that doesn't change the fact that ITM is just a voluntary mouthpiece for American policy

???
So propaganda based on fabricated evidence is okay if it promotes....who? what Iraqi political policy was aided by dishonestly inflating the number of Iraqi deaths at Iraqi hands??


[Kid] Riverbend disgusts me just as equally as ITM matter of fact ; they are both extremes, Khalid Jarrar may have a frenzied conservative extremist viewpoint on the world, but the ITM also have a frenzied extremist viewpoint of the world

I'm relieved to hear you say this, but frankly I don't see the same sort of venom directed at Riverbend nor Khalid. I don't expect you to answer for the opinions of all the other bloggers in your Lancet post, but you seem to be able to speak respectfully to the Jarrars. And frankly, I've read several of the bloggers quoted in your piece praise Riverbend and dump acid on ITM. Contrary to Riverbend or the Jarrar Family, the ITM brothers are fairly clear about what they want out of Iraq: a secular, essentially free society like the ones taken for granted in THE WEST (but not yet in the Middle East).


[Kid] (except Ali, who seem to have some sort of balance, which is why I hope he quit the blog)

Based on his explanation shortly after he started his alternative blog, I understood that he quit because he began to see ITM as the locus of kind of ideological fault line: Either you read ITM or you hated it. If you didn't love Pres. Bush, then you were supposed to condemn everything about Iraq since March 2003. Ali (as I understood it) wanted a place to talk about Iraq with the ideological baggage. But that "baggage" was packed as much (or more) by those ideologically committed to the failure of your country after Saddam's fall.

reminder said...

KID, DO NOT WATER THE FUNGUS.

DO NOT GIVE THE IRAQI-HOLOCAUST DENIERS A PLATFORM TO SPEW MORE LIES ABOUT IRAQ. THEY WILL BLINDLY ONLY BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANT TO BELIEVE. SEND THEM BACK TO ANTI-IRAQI BLOGGERS CENTRAL, IRAQ THE MINION OR THE SELF-HATING IRAQI MOJO'S BLOG.

LET IGNORANCE BE IGNORED!

Jeffrey said...

Kid,

First of all, one of my personal drawbacks as a human is my irrepressible sarcasm. Usually I keep it in check. But sometimes I just have to poke fun. Arabic music is just as emotive and sophisticated as Western. As you know, it is based of both rhythmic differences and a different melodic scale (I was a guitar player like you years ago).

But I just had to have a little fun with your conversion back to Arabic music and its "Oriental melodies" from the four/four rhythms, heavy bass, and impatient sixteenth-note and thirty-second-note heavy-metal guitar ascents up and descents down the fretboard. Treasure of Baghdad, among others, have linked to some very fine Iraqi musicians playing traditional music. The only thing I would add is that you probably should throw out all Western music. Listen to Jeff "Skunk" Baxter's solo on the Steely Dan "Bodhisattva." It's really quite a creative lead. (Here's a Youtube clip of a guitarist at home playing it so you can see all the fingering.)

So I apologize if my sarcasm is offensive to you. I'll try to keep it in check, but the idea of Iraqis simply decided to use a modified American flag because they were already under "US occupation" (as I've heard so often) seemed far too humoruous and satirical to pass up.

By the way, later in the day yesterday I thought about advocating that Iraq hold a referendum to break the country into two parts -- Arabostan/Iraq and Kurdistan -- and that the two sections become the 51st and 52nd states of the United States of America. Heh heh. Think of it. All of you would get American passports, two senators for both new states in the Senate, and quite a few Representatives. Contracts would flood into the new US States of Arabostan/Iraq and Kurdistan. Universities, research centers, state-of-the art factories, and new kinds of commerce would flood into these two new states -- not to mention tourism. I was going to have some fun with that, but I decided not to (although it was really tempting).

*

Jeffrey said...

Kid,

My rebuttal regarding the ITM brothers is motivated quite simply from this viewpoint, you think the only good Middle Eastern is a complacent puppy that has no real character of his own and who'd wag his tail for you at all points and circumstances, this is the only good Middle Eastern for you.

You've known me for a few years now. Do you really think that I prefer people to be "complacent puppies"? I love debates, especially debates that have heat to them. This is clear, I believe, to anyone who has followed my blog close to four years now. One of my first blog entries, in fact, voiced my interest in hearing Iraqis debate each other one-on-one so those of us outside Iraq could get some idea of the parameters and sinews of those issues that are important to you guys (See "Fuzzy and Dangerous Logic," a blog entry from June 30, 2004). Note my examinantion, in that entry, of those bloggers for whom "feelings" often become "facts." This charge could just as well be applied to those who were unable to see the obvious deficiencies in the Lancet report.

I do not see how anyone could characterize the three Fadhil brothers as "complacent puppies." From the very beginning back in the fall of 2003 they spoke their own minds on the current state of Iraq as well as its past and its hope for the future. They didn't alter their opinions to please anyone. And they didn't gang up on other Iraqis and try to ostracize those voices that they didn't agree with. They argued with others, to be sure, but I never recall them screaming about how they "hated" other bloggers because they didn't agree with some of their views.

Read this early blog entry from November, 2003, by Omar Fadhil and see if you can call him a "complacent puppy" to his face.

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Jeffrey said...

Kid,

A rewrite:

I wrote:

Arabic music is just as emotive and sophisticated as Western. As you know, it is based of both rhythmic differences and a different melodic scale

A better re-write:

Arabic music, based on both different rhythmic and melodic principles, is just as emotive and sophisticated as Western music.

And a couple typos.

I wrote:

The only thing I would add is that you probably should [not] throw out all Western music.

I'll try to keep it in check, but the idea of Iraqis simply [deciding] to use a modified American flag because they were already under "US occupation" (as I've heard so often) seemed far too humoruous and satirical to pass up.

I was writing a little too quickly on those comments.

*

Konfused Kid said...

Jeffrey,

apology accepted, I don't mind poking fun at stuff like that but you of all people should know that sometimes sarcasm from within is different than sarcasm from without. All of what you said is fine by me, btw I don't have anything personal against the ITM bros ; i would meet with them and discuss things with them heartily as best as freedom of speech loving people would do, i do believe their views are skewed, but I think the same of Jarrar and I still chat and talk to him on occasion.
As a matter of fact, I myself am closer to what ITM wants Iraq to be more than Khalid Jarrar: A secular Iraq where religious influence is told to stick itself where it should, however, I only hope that America stays in Iraq not because I blindly love and cheer everything they do, but simply because it is in the interest of myself as an Iraqi for the moment, there aren't any plausible alternatives. it is the lesser evil, at least we'll be regular Middle Eastern sellouts and not a theocracy that's dominated by a bigger, more depressing one. Hopefully out of that somewhere something positive could happen, whereas theocracy would just cover us like poision and never let go.

Jeffrey said...

Kid,

I don't mind poking fun at stuff like that but you of all people should know that sometimes sarcasm from within is different than sarcasm from without.

Yes indeed. I have to careful about that. My blog entries, as you've probably noticed, reveal various strategies. Sometimes I post sober, analytical entries while other times I use satirical send-ups to express my views on the issue at hand. The satire, as you've seen, is usually what gets me into trouble, especially if interpreted as critical of all Arabs or Muslims. The line does become fine at times.

As a matter of fact, I myself am closer to what ITM wants Iraq to be more than Khalid Jarrar: A secular Iraq where religious influence is told to stick itself where it should.

This is clear to anyone who has been reading you from the beginning, as I have.

In Iraq there are multiple basic views on the country, its past, present, and future. The Iraqi blogosphere, in my view, offers the reader a fairly good cross-section of some of those views, which is why so many of us Americans follow you guys. From all of you, we get a better idea of the range of Iraqi opinions. Of course, we also have our own views on what we read, just as one would expect.

I have no doubt that you would enjoy sitting down and talking with Omar Fadhil. I've met him here in New York along with Mojo and we had a great conversation over dinner, covering a wide range of topics. He's smart, well-read, and good at debate. One thing you've probably realized is that the internet and the blogosphere sometimes allows us to exaggerate our differences. It often turns out (but not always) that we have more in common than in what we had previously thought.

*

BlogIraqi said...

Kid,
I just hate the fact that every English-writing Iraqi blogger writing in an anti-american way is attacked by a bunch of american propaganda interns.
As Bush have declared it before, people are either with or against america. So you either kiss the holly ass of America or you're a terrorist.
Its a relief when I read "Its only a 100,000 dead people not a million". A hundred thousand is nothing man, chill out. If you think a hundred thousand is too much, look at the millions that Saddam killed.
Well american f*ckbags. This just does not make it right. The fact that a million or more died during Saddam time just is not a reason good enough to kill a 100,000 after him. Although I believe the number is much higher than 100,000.
And one more thing, Iraq is an occupied country. And it will remain this way until the last american soldier leaves the Iraqi grounds.
And I'll keep the comment on the ITM thing to myself.

Jeffrey said...

BlogIraqi,

Note well that the the so-called resistance, the foreign jihadis, and the death-squads (both Shiite and Sunni) are the ones who killed the vast majority of those Iraqi citizens (men, women, and children), and NOT the Coalition forces. Let's be clear about that. The blame for those deaths rests at the hands of Arab Muslims, either from inside Iraq itself or outside Iraq. No amount of obfuscation will change that.

*

lelly said...

ya mutti = you donkey

ya gheby = you idiot

mu6y = dumb

*making notes*
huh thanks! :P how do you say the 6 thing?

Jeffrey said...

BlogIraqi,

And one more thing, Iraq is an occupied country. And it will remain this way until the last american soldier leaves the Iraqi grounds.

We still have troops in Japan, Germany, and South Korea, three of the strongest economies in the world (behind the US, of course). Do you think they consider themselves to be "occupied"? Listen, all Americans hope most of our military members are out of Iraq sooner rather than later. Iraq is a sovereign country and has been for a couple years now.

*

CMAR II said...

[BlogIraqi] I just hate the fact that every English-writing Iraqi blogger writing in an anti-american way is attacked by a bunch of american propaganda interns.

Heh heh heh. Yeah, well you're next BlogIraqi. Assuming I get around to posting a round-up of blog comments about the new flag, I do not intend to leave out your racist, rumor-bitten, paranoid screed on how the Iraqi Kurd's screwed up Saddam's racist, sectarian flag.

I am SICK UNTO DEATH of certain Iraqis who can't lay one rational argument after another whining about non-Iraqis contradicting them. If you need a translation: I'm talking about YOU. As the ITM thread here shows, Iraqis don't all think the same thing, and some of them agree with ME and NOT YOU (and they very often turn out to be self-evidently RIGHT). Oh, yeah, but for some, the arguments of THOSE Iraqis don't count either, right? The opinions of Iraqi KURDS certainly don't count with you, do they? Not about the Iraqi flag they don't.

So next time you decide to comment, I'd really like to see you bring a genuine rational ARGUMENT with you.

programmer craig said...

I just hate the fact that every English-writing Iraqi blogger writing in an anti-american way is attacked by a bunch of american propaganda interns.

What about the way every wannabe jihadi on the internet gets the unconditional support of every western leftist nutjob on the planet? You think it makes us happy when our crazy people team up with your crazy people? Some blogs, like healing Iraq, look like a freaking crazy person convention these days. What is your country going to be like, if those people ever do get their way?

Konfused Kid said...

"western leftist nutjob"

What about the extra-crazy right-wing evangelical neo-cons, I just watched Jesus Camp and it's terrifiyingly scary. I think those are more scary and more in vein with Jihadis than the leftists, who are more annoying than scary.

programmer craig said...

Hey kid, I agree with you that the far right is scarier than the far left. But you've got the categories wrong, and I'll explain why:

What about the extra-crazy right-wing evangelical neo-cons

Evangelicals are not neocons. They are just "cons". Or something. They are old school conservative. Neo-Cons are something fairly new. Most of them aren't "conservative" at all, in the traditional sense. And many of them are Jewish, which locks them right out of the "evangelical" thing :)

I just watched Jesus Camp and it's terrifiyingly scary.

Christians aren't particularly violent, though. The far-right movements that bother me are the various white-supremacist groups. That includes KKK, Aryan Brotherhood (a prison gang), various Biker gangs, skinhead, neo-nazis, various militias, and so on. They are all violent, and some of them *infamously* violent. The good news is that these movements are shrinking in the US.

I think those are more scary and more in vein with Jihadis than the leftists, who are more annoying than scary.

Yeah, absolutely. But the far right doesn't side with the jihadis. I think an encounter between them would result in one or the other of them not being around, anymore.

Zappy said...

By the way, the "Allah" in this flag looks suspiciously similar to Allah in this flag

ever heard of "Kufi letters" ?

BlogIraqi said...

[Jeffrey]: Note well that the the so-called resistance, the foreign jihadis, and the death-squads (both Shiite and Sunni) are the ones who killed the vast majority of those Iraqi citizens (men, women, and children), and NOT the Coalition forces.
I wounder why did not we see all of these killers before the occupation.
I guess its because the Americans did not have a clue of what to do after removing Saddam. The borders remained open with no shape of guarding for about three months after the occupation and still no %100 secure since.
[We still have troops in Japan, Germany, and South Korea, three of the strongest economies in the world (behind the US, of course). Do you think they consider themselves to be "occupied"? Listen, all Americans hope most of our military members are out of Iraq sooner rather than later.]
This I have to agree with. Iraqi and Americans hope that the troop leave Iraq as soon a possible. And with the ups and down in the security situation that might take sometime.
And regarding other countries that have troops of the US. All of the three examples mentioned were occupied, or "liberated"?, by the US before and the troops still exist there in low numbers. And its up to them to name the foreign troops the way they like.
[CMAR]: Heh heh heh. Yeah, well you're next BlogIraqi. Assuming I get around to posting a round-up of blog comments about the new flag, I do not intend to leave out your racist, rumor-bitten, paranoid screed on how the Iraqi Kurd's screwed up Saddam's racist, sectarian flag.
Oh my God I am shaking..the mighty CMAR is going to write about me. His fellow propaganda interns are going to hate me. What can I do?
And regarding my "racist" comments on the Kurdish leaders. I don't find it racist to point out that the Kurdish leaders come from the same American gutters that brought out the rest of the Iraqi "politician" that are leading the country now. But I must have annoyed you by talking bad about them because I forgot that they are your guys in the neighborhood and they were the loyal servants who helped in occupying Iraq by the US so they have to have whatever they want.
And regarding the "argument" you want. I have two thing to say. First, I am not commenting to your blog and my speech was directed to Kid. Second, my argument is very clear; there are over a hundred thousand US soldiers in Iraq. So, Iraq is an occupied country. I know you will not like it, but I am sure you know where to shove it.

@Craig
It would be a wore hell than it is right now. If Iraq is left to the extremists (Sunni or Shiite) it will never be able to stand up again. And it will be a center exporting terrorism to the region and the world.
The Americans are not leading this war in the right way. Lots of things need to be done to bring calmness back and lots of people in-charge need to be changed.

CMAR II said...

[blogiraq] Oh my God I am shaking..the mighty CMAR is going to write about me.

You're the one who said that bothered you. Not me. Don't start pretending you don't care now, because I know you do. Hahahaha.

[blogiraqi] I wounder why did not we see all of these killers before the occupation.

Because they were running the government of Iraq? Let's see...Sunni Arabs represent less than 20% of the Iraq population. The Sunni insurgencies came in from the cold and stopped giving sanctuary to Al-Qaeda in Iraq (but Shi'a militias are still out of hand). And suddenly violence against civilians dropped 80%. I wonder who was responsible for that?

CMAR II said...

[kid] I just watched Jesus Camp and it's terrifiyingly scary.

[pc] Christians aren't particularly violent, though.


The worst thing those kids at Jesus Camp will do to you is give you a free DVD. I don't think you need to worry too much about them. There's really no comparison to the jihadis. They don't even JUSTIFY violence in the name of religion (as is true with the jihadis' sympathizers).

Jeffrey said...

CMAR II,

Because they were running the government of Iraq?

Oh man! That was a great rebuttal. The Ba'athists suddenly kicked out of office decided that by working with the foreign jihadists and creating maximum death and chaos the interim Iraqi government would topple and they'd climb back in the saddle. There you have your KILLERS. They were killers while in Saddam's government and they were killers -- certainly not soldiers, however, given their pathetic performance in 2003 -- once they lost their government.

They are like that line-up of "mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits" from "Blazing Saddles."

"You said 'rape' twice."

"I like rape."

*

Konfused Kid said...

You're right CMAR, I guess I don't really care about getting the 'correct' categorization, they're all scary in my opinion.

The thing is, those guys aren't really much different from jihadis, you know why? because the Arab-Muslim world is passing through times where it is seriously and beaten on all fields by the West ; this is why it got in such a fuss and it started chopping off heads left and right, Osama bin Laden wasn't there from the beginning, you know? It was a compound of failures which leads one to commit genocidal hatred, think Travis Bickle.

Now If the Muslims suddenly started developing scientific jumps and achievemtns left and right, ran the world, and decided to install a homeland in Oklahoma for the "lost tribes of the Nativa Americans", do you think those evangelicals would still be handing out free DVDs? It's all a matter of context.

Man, I rock, I laughed hard at my own rebuttal.

Konfused Kid said...

as for zappy, I get your drift, but it still looks too similar. :) couldn't they have chosen less bold outlines?

CMAR II said...

[kid] Man, I rock, I laughed hard at my own rebuttal.

LMAO


[kid] ...decided to install a homeland in Oklahoma for the "lost tribes of the Nativa Americans"

Well, America does have Reservations, and OBL reportedly never gave a hoot about the West Bank and Israel until a couple months after 9-11 in order to rally supporters to his troubled cause.

But, now that I think about it, there is *something* of an analogy to the "Jewish Homeland" thing. Do you know why Dearborn, Michigan has the largest concentration of Arabs in the US? You can thank the antisemitism of carmaker Henry Ford. This started well before before WWII, so it simply is not the case that Europeans got one morning after WWII and decided to send their Jews to Palestine. "Israel" was one more attempt by the West to resolve the blood-feud in that region.

Jeffrey said...

Kid,

Now If the Muslims suddenly started developing scientific jumps and achievemtns left and right, ran the world, and decided to install a homeland in Oklahoma for the "lost tribes of the Nativa Americans", do you think those evangelicals would still be handing out free DVDs? It's all a matter of context..

I don't think we Westerners can count on the Christians amongst us to revert to militant, lethal religiosity anymore. Nationalism is what braces us for combat, not religion so much. Jeez, just go to any church and listen to the sermon. They're pathetic. It's all about "peace and love."

Yes, the days of fighting for the cross, I'm afraid, are long gone. Quite a shame, really. I would love to go to just ONE church and have the priest or preacher urge the followers to raise up their firearms and attack the freaking Muslims, like the weird-beard, hook-nosed, beetle-browed imams urge their followers to do against the Crusaders in the Middle East. Just for the novelty, of course.

You might be right, though. Maybe those damned Christian sheep will finally be transformed back into lions in the right situation. I guess, to follow your argument, because the Christian West has won every encounter with Islam for quite a few centuries now, we can afford to have "Christian rock" singers who put out those lame CDs. The commercials for those CDs always show all these Christians with their eyes closed and hands lifted to Heavan singing along with the cute, neutered Christain rock guys. Maybe it's better for everyone if they keep their eyes closed. Better, for Muslims, to have that Christian rock dude holding a Martin acoustic than an M1 rifle. Heh heh.

*

CMAR II said...

oh...I don't think I was clear about my point:

While I agree that M.E. jihadis are born of a sense of inferiority toward the West, they are born of many more things as well some of which greatly enable that sense of inferiority. The jihadis have many parents.

Still, the Muslims in Michigan are not under siege by Evangelicals, even though they are surrounded by them on all sides. Nor are the Muslims in Western Europe besieged in countries that actually have Christianity as their official religion, although they are becoming a problem (but that situation is also more complex than "Muslim = bad").

Islamic jihadis --in their degree of extremism and their enablement by their society-- are a "one-off". I can't imagine to what else they could be mapped.

Jeffrey said...

Kid,

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, the riff on the "homeland for the Native Americans" created by Muslims in the middle of the States was inspired. I laughed too. I was equally inspired to respond with my analysis of the Christian "sheeple" in the West.

*

programmer craig said...

Now If the Muslims suddenly started developing scientific jumps and achievemtns left and right, ran the world, and decided to install a homeland in Oklahoma for the "lost tribes of the Nativa Americans", do you think those evangelicals would still be handing out free DVDs? It's all a matter of context.

That's a good point, Kid. But Christians have been victimized in Iraq for being Christian... have there been a lot of cases of them becoming violent and retaliating? I haven't heard of any.

In most of the world, throughout history the losing side has not gone completely apeshit crazy on the winning side and insisted on a "fight to the death" after they have already clearly lost. That kind of fanaticism is suicidal, and I can't think of anywhere else it's ever been seen. This tactic of slaughtering your own countrymen to demoralize the enemy is something I can't envision ever happening in the West. It never has before, and we've fought a lot of wars.

Still, it's is a good point.

Konfused Kid said...

I'm sorry Craig, but your weak defense gave me quite a chuckle. The view sure looks nice from where you're living, but I'm sorry to say that I myself found it virtually impossible a few years ago that Islam can be viewed as such a barbaric monstrous entity, I also found it out of the question that Iraqi Sunnis and Shiites would be at each other's throats back in 2005, we think a lot of things, it's kinda funny when we watch as our conceptions are torn to shreds by reality. It's really scary to watch the indoctrination of those kids, it's 100% identical to what is happening at mosques.
Truth is, when push comes to shove, those truth-spreading evangelical would be shitting Crusades if they're cornered by the "Evil Imperial East."

BlogIraqi said...

CMAR,
It seems like you are reading a different web page.

Jeffery Said:[resistance, the foreign jihadis, and the death-squads (both Shiite and Sunni) are the ones who killed the vast majority of those Iraqi citizens (men, women, and children), and NOT the Coalition forces.]

And I said to HIM:[I wounder why did not we see all of these killers before the occupation.]
So,
these killers = "resistance" + foriegn Jihadis + death-squads (both Shiite and Sunni)

And you said: Because they were running the government of Iraq?

Man you know about Iraq as much as a rat knows about a space shuttle.

And you also said [You're the one who said that bothered you. Not me. Don't start pretending you don't care now, because I know you do. Hahahaha.]
I am bothered by finding your stinky face burping your pre-paid propaganda about how wonderful life is now that the americans in the world.
Pretend I don't care??
Oh you got me. I care so much how a fatass enjoying the calmness of a non-occupied country and 24/7 electricity and water thinks of me.
Oh boy your leaders sure chose the good interns to distribute their bullshit all over the web.

Kid,
I am sorry for using such a crappy language on your blog.

Jeffrey said...

Kid,

Truth is, when push comes to shove, those truth-spreading evangelical would be shitting Crusades if they're cornered by the "Evil Imperial East."

I hope you're right. Those Christian rock dudes are pussies.

*

Jeffrey said...

Blog Iraqi,

Can you explain why Arab Muslims love to kill each other so much? Those suicide-bombers coming through Syria are killing Iraqi citizens, very rarely our military.

In almost five years in Iraq, the American military has suffered only around four thousand fatalities (only three thousand due to hostile fire, one thousand due to accidents). It's obvious that the resistance/jihadis were most interested in targetting Iraqi citizens, killing probably at least a hundred thousand, and not the American military.

A hundred thousand Iraqi deaths to three thousand American deaths. So who were the resistance/jihadis targetting? How exactly does that Arab/Muslim brotherhood work?

*

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

lelly,

You're welcome. :)

how do you say the 6 thing?

Got me. I just write 'em I don't say 'em. :P

I think the numbers represent sounds that aren't easily associated with an English letter.

Kid,

Jesus Camp is scary as hell. You're right, they are using the same type of indoctrination methods as you might see in a madrassa.

Whether they would turn quite so violent as you see with the Jihadis in the ME, I don't know. I think there are definitely individual extremists that could. I think back to certain incidents that have taken place at abortion clinics, for example. But I do think you may be on to something about their reaction if they ever ran across a true Jihadist. ;)

Nice discussion. I get tired of reading the personal attacks, from both sides. A simple exchange of thoughts, feelings and ideas goes a long way to understanding each other.

CMAR II said...

[blogiraqi] Man you know about Iraq as much as a rat knows about a space shuttle.

Yeah, but I know a lot about rats. Pull up a chair and have some cheese.

[blogiraqi] So,
these killers = "resistance" + foriegn Jihadis + death-squads (both Shiite and Sunni)


"resistance" leadership = former regime

"The ones who invited and aided the foreign jihadis until they could blow themselves up at a mosque"
=
"resistance" leadership

Perhaps I should type more slowly so you can keep up.

Yes, Sadrite militias and other Shi'a gangs have a lot of blood on their hands. But the fact is that when the "resistance" stopped trying to burn the country down and turned on the foreign jihadis, the Iraqi civilian deathrate went down to 1/5 of what it was before.

In fact, the "resistance" gave the Sadrites their credibility, since they promised to protect 65% of the Iraqi population. Do you think the current Iraqi government is full of Shi'a religious bigots? Then you can thank the "resistance" because their behavior caused Iraqis to vote into power the party mostly likely to deal most severely with the "resistance" .

That's just the way it is. I didn't make the world, but I'm not willing to burn it down if I can't have my way.


[blogiraqi] Oh you got me. I care so much how a fatass enjoying the calmness of a non-occupied country and 24/7 electricity and water thinks of me.

Told ya so. Heh heh heh heh.

programmer craig said...

Kid,

Truth is, when push comes to shove, those truth-spreading evangelical would be shitting Crusades if they're cornered by the "Evil Imperial East."

I hope so. Nut Evangelicals are Protestants. They can't do Crusades. That's only for Catholics. I'd kiss the Pope's feet if he declared another Crusade right now (he's the only one with the authority), and I'm not even Catholic. I think the whole western world would be stunned into silence, except for people like Bruno who would tell some really bad jokes... until he started seeing whole nations pledging for the Crusade. You may be worried about Evangelicals, kid, but Catholics tend to take their religion VERY seriously. Especially in places like Latin America. Evangelicals would be standing around saying "WTF!?". Well, probably not... but the devout Christian equivalent.

programmer craig said...

I think the numbers represent sounds that aren't easily associated with an English letter.

Yeah. the "7" we usually right as an "H", as in "habibi/habibti. A friend of mine tried to teach me the right way to pronounce it (it's not really an H) but I just sounded like a cat trying to pass a furball so she gave up.

BlogIraqi said...

Jeffery,
Terrorism is not associated to a group. Even some European terrorists were found in Iraq. But the fact that most foreign terrorists in Iraq are Arabs is certainly true. I think its because some religious-disguised terrorist leaders are doing a hard work in brainwashing people to the killing machines they are becoming.
They are using sectarian differenced to enhance the feeling of hatred those weak-minded people have. And since the arabs are nearby Iraq, they are just the right hunt for those brain-washers.
A lot of education need to be done to immunize the people from these extreme ideas of non-tolerance.
Jeffery, I am Muslim and I have read a lot of islamic books, believe me when I say, this is not what Islam is about.
The terrorists are using Islam as a disguise because they know that religion has a big effect on people in the middle east and their emotions can easily manipulated.

CMAR,
You have hit the rock bottom with your last comment. And I am not even going to dignify you with an answer.

Deaths have came down since the "awakening" groups started to realize that Al-Qaeda is not going to bring any good to Iraq AND since the Mehdi militias froze their actions, in case you have not heard.

programmer craig said...

blogiraqi,

The terrorists are using Islam as a disguise because they know that religion has a big effect on people in the middle east and their emotions can easily manipulated.

That's the true danger that the Kid is trying to describe, for the west, as well. Our violent right-wing groups are Christian in nothing but name, but if our barbarians were able to get the "endorsement" of American Christians, we'd have the exact same scenario in the US that Muslims have now. The US would probably more closely resemble Nazi Germany if that happened, than a Muslim country, but the recipe is the same.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

...but I just sounded like a cat trying to pass a furball so she gave up.

ROTFL!

And people wonder why we don't try harder to learn Arabic.

CMAR II said...

[BlogIraqi] AND since the Mehdi militias froze their actions, in case you have not heard.

You believe Sadr has that kind of influence? You really believe the Shi'a militias (who were not arrested) turned around 180 degrees the way so many the Sunni tribes and insurgents did? If so, why do you believe they did?

Jeffrey said...

Blog Iraqi,

But the fact that most foreign terrorists in Iraq are Arabs is certainly true. I think its because some religious-disguised terrorist leaders are doing a hard work in brainwashing people to the killing machines they are becoming.

Yep. Bin Laden and Zawahiri at the top, of course. They have killed far, far more Muslims than they have Christians or infidels.

They are using sectarian differenced to enhance the feeling of hatred those weak-minded people have. And since the arabs are nearby Iraq, they are just the right hunt for those brain-washers.

Wahhabists do use sectarianism to inflame their adherents.

A lot of education need to be done to immunize the people from these extreme ideas of non-tolerance.

I agree. One of the problems is that illiteracy remains a problem in the region.

Jeffery, I am Muslim and I have read a lot of islamic books, believe me when I say, this is not what Islam is about.

I'll take your word on that. I have heard many other Muslims say this and this is why we Westerners are sometimes surprised that the so-called moderate Muslims are not more angered by the Muslim extremists who are giving Islam such a bad name.

The terrorists are using Islam as a disguise because they know that religion has a big effect on people in the middle east and their emotions can easily manipulated.

Islam and the A.P.U. together make a deadly combination indeed (See Sandmonkey's "7 Rules of the A.P.U.," if your interested).

*

BlogIraqi said...

Craig,
That is absolutely true. And if the world get to a point where the Extremist of Muslims and Christians collaborate, it will be a pure disaster.

CMAR,
If you compare the number of deaths before and after the Samarra shrine destruction in Feb. 2006, you will find that indeed Mehdi army was a great part of this mess. And I believe the decision to freeze Mehdi army activities is that they were being trapped slowly in a corner. And the additional 30,000 troops in Baghdad gave them a real hard time. So, the way I see it, they decided to lay low for some time thinking they might gather up some strength and come back. And they have been waving with a "de-freeze" to their activities when the freezing ends next month. Although I do not think that they will be able to regain the same level of power they had before.
The Mehdi army did not take 180 degrees reversal. They did not change from death-squads to security enforcement squads like the "Awakening" groups. They just stopped doing what they were doing (of course not entirely).

Jeffery,
I will read the post you referred to soon.

Treasure of Baghdad said...

The moment I saw the new flag, I thought of Hezbollah's flag!

Treasure of Baghdad said...

I loved your first response to Jeffrey, kid.

Ani mashayef wahid helged yetrazal u mayfeed beeh. Maku karama.

Jeffrey said...

BT,

Actually, I just had Kid's remark tattoed on my arm: kuss 7abibak. It looks pretty cool in Arabic.

Hey, did you ever take a class with Jenny Spinner at St. Joe's? How did it go? I guess you'll be back in Baghdad this summer, right? Finally reunited with your Dear Mother. Good luck upon your return, BT. I hope you continue blogging this summer back home. Man, I can only imagine how the tears are going to flow when you see the dusty streets of your ol' home town again (better bring a couple extra hankies with you).

*

programmer craig said...

BT, you're going home?

Bala ya khumak

programmer craig said...

Elif air ab tizak

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

BT, do you always lead with your chin?

Anonymous said...

and that the two sections become the 51st and 52nd states of the United States of America. Heh heh. Think of it. All of you would get American passports, two senators for both new states in the Senate, and quite a few Representatives. Contracts would flood into the new US States of Arabostan/Iraq and Kurdistan. Universities, research centers, state-of-the art factories, and new kinds of commerce would flood into these two new states -- not to mention tourism. I was going to have some fun with that, but I decided not to (although it was really tempting).


sorry, we already have a 51st state. israel.


I don't think we Westerners can count on the Christians amongst us to revert to militant, lethal religiosity anymore. Nationalism is what braces us for combat, not religion so much. Jeez, just go to any church and listen to the sermon. They're pathetic. It's all about "peace and love."


ahh, not really.


I would love to go to just ONE church and have the priest or preacher urge the followers to raise up their firearms and attack the freaking Muslims, like the weird-beard, hook-nosed, beetle-browed imams urge their followers to do against the Crusaders in the Middle East. Just for the novelty, of course.


of course.


You might be right, though. Maybe those damned Christian sheep will finally be transformed back into lions in the right situation.


gee, i guess you missed the pentagon christianista movie. maybe you should check out the military religious freedom foundation because they have a very different impression.

the video, interviewing military members, is about dominionist christianistas. i consider it a threat to our country and our military. it has infested our pentagon, and ranking military officials inside iraq.

watch the video. 'they want a spiritually transformed military w/ambassadors for christ in uniform , empowered by the holy spirit."

watch the movie

the scene also links to the Campus Crusade for Christ sponsored Global Pastors Network (which IS evangelical, not catholics)

thanks for all the absurd propaganda speels from your psyops campaign guys. way to goooooooo

annie

programmer craig said...

annie, you have something (bad) to say about everything, don't you? If I told you I had a Golden Retriever, you'd be here telling me something awful. Maybe you should consider doing something about that depression you have, instead of trying to make everyone else as miserable as you are? Just a thought.

Bruno said...

[blogiraqi] "Truth is, when push comes to shove, those truth-spreading evangelical would be shitting Crusades if they're cornered by the "Evil Imperial East."

RIGHT.

[jeffrey] "It's obvious that the resistance/jihadis were most interested in targetting Iraqi citizens, killing probably at least a hundred thousand, and not the American military. A hundred thousand Iraqi deaths to three thousand American deaths. So who were the resistance/jihadis targetting? How exactly does that Arab/Muslim brotherhood work?"

This is precisely the sort of lie and distortion of reality that American warmongers like Jeffrey like to peddle. Let's think back to 2003. What's the very first thing the nice Americans did when they gained control?

Oh, right.

They tried to run Iraq as an collection of SECTARIAN AND ETHNIC entities. They collected the MOST RADICAL sectarian people they could find and stuffed the new armed forces with them. SECT was stamped in the US mind. Heck, when Bremer met the head of the Iraqi Communist party, he kept on trying to sort him into a "shia or sunni" camp.

Then, when the resistance to invasion got a bit hot in 2004, the American solution was to pitch sect against sect, wasn't it? That's why they created all the DEATH SQUADS and loosed them on the so-called "Sunni" populace. Now that the Shia are being hard headed, we have the anti-Maliki "Awakening" and "CLC" groups being formed while US psyops units are spouting anti-Shia propaganda all the while.

Fact is, the sectarian bloodshed was kicked off by the US and it is the US as power broker that HAS PROFITED THE MOST from it.

Fact is, Jeffrey reacts precisely as he has been conditioned to react, which is to instinctively blame the victims of his own country's machinations as being at fault.

It's like me sponsoring Republican death squads to kill a million Democrats and then shaking my head at those "savage Americans" when political warfare breaks out in the US.

programmer craig said...

Bruno is an expert on American Evangelicals. Bruno knows all. All hail Bruno.

The only think Bruno doesn't know is if he's a white South African, or a black South African.

programmer craig said...

It's like me sponsoring Republican death squads to kill a million Democrats

Oh, really? So it was the Shia who stirred up all the shit, right from the start? Or are you claiming that teh US supported Al Qaida and the Sunni in Anbar? Boy, that Falluja op sure was a clever way of demonstrating US support for the insurgency.

and then shaking my head at those "savage Americans" when political warfare breaks out in the US.

Replace "the US" with "Iraq" and that's exactly what you are doing, isn't it? Haven't you been supporting the Sunni insurgency from the beginning, even after it was clear that their biggest victims were other Iraqis? Aren't you, advocating a return to "resistance" in places that have become peaceful in Iraq, Bruno?

It's not at all unusual for somebody to attribute their own motivations to others. It's called "projection".

onix said...

honestly i thought the flag was changed becus the neocons died of fear by the idea of a ppl
motivated through, unity, freedom and socialism.

i think that aspect is more relevant then the natural kurdish wish to see this flag gone.

nadia n said...

onix
I honestly think that they're just fucking with us now.

Anonymous said...

We need a new flag... we need new stuff everything should be new. Let's stop thinking of the past and try to be different for once in our history.

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