Friday, November 14, 2008

Iraq is Catch-22: I Give Up


I've given up on Iraq in the same way I've given up on Islam.

it was a moment that, taken by itself, is virtually meaningless, but it somehow finally allowed me to realize the relentless build up to the conclusion that was becoming clearer to me everyday as I read more into Iraqi contemporary history, Islamic history, and the methods of Western involvement in the region, and as I talked more with "Iraqis" around me, (that word will forever be in quotations now in this blog).

That moment occurred about a week ago, I was reading an article by Ali al-Dabbagh, spokesman for the government of Iraq, on his personal website, that article is called 'Towards Building A Shia National Identity.' Several sectarian Sunni websites were outraged about it, I was curious for some insights into the personal views of the kind of people inside the Iraqi government, his article was equally sectarian: the text, which I remind you, represents the view of a high official in the united democratic Iraqi government, bitched in the usual shy and sly manner of Shi'i polemics about the continous '14 centuries of terrorism' genocide against the Shia, the murder of 12 Imams by 'them', then this vengeful masturbatory buildup is cut short at the time of release, it then proceeds to navigate means to keep the Shia in power, implying a high degree of religious factionalism. It reminded me of the al-Furat channel in its very early days, when it hasn't yet heard of Public Relations, it pretended that all of Iraq was Hardcore Shia and there were songs to Ayatullah Sistani in every break. I found it hilarious at the time, what did I know.

It was at this historical moment of time that I realized that these people are never going to change, that the hope I was secretly having that those cockroach Islamists would mutate some form of understanding of modern state principles such as co-existence, that the dumbshit Americans would bully them into it somehow. It's obvious that those people are only using 'democracy' as means, never an end. By the way, our freely elected democratic leader issued a law to 'close all nightclubs' in Baghdad recently.

***

I spent my stay in Syria in my aunt's house, who is a pretty active member in the Sunni Islamic Party, the life of that household revolves around one cause entirely, the women are all dressed in drab, terrain-colored titcurtains (jubbas), their knowledge of music is limited to Islamic heartthrobs such as Sami Yusuf, and the television is perpetually tuned to Iqraa'a channel, for an undercover kafir like me, it would've been pretty much eternal damnation if it wasn't for the presence of videogames, (I later learned that they accused me of being a negative influence on the mosque-trekking activities of my male cousins, who took my presence as an excuse to skip the daily Dawn Prayer at the nearby mosque).

So anyway, one day my cousin decides to meet with his friends, who are more active members in the Islamic Party, we are navigating the famous Soq il Hamidiya when one of the ubiquitous pictures of Sayyid Hasan Nasrallah provokes one of the them to instruct me in a hushed, secret-in-the-know tone that the 2006 Israel-Lebanon's true cause was....because a village in Southern Lebanon became Sunni and the Shia and the Jews made it all up to kill all those nawasib. When I politely tell him to suck his own dick and die, the other guys says that al-Askari Shrine was bombed by the Shia themselves, a theory as exquisitely magnificent as saying Osama bin Laden plotted the bombing of the Kaaba, my cousin, who is sectarain but to a less offensive degree, supports me by saying it was the Americans who did it. Remember that all of these people confess to what you know as the 'moderate' form of Sunni Islam in Iraq.
After laborious dialog with two of my cousins, in which I have to circumvent mentalities that still think Sunnis are the majority in Iraq, I finally got them to be reluctantly convinced that secularism is the only way all Iraqis could be truly united by the many common things they have, after a pause, my other cousin relents, "but the only real identity is Islam, Iraq is fake."

This, in a nutshell, sums up the identity of those Islamists, Sunni and Shia, in politics, the Sunni Islamic Party appears more accommodating to the ruling Shia only because it is, like all minorities, is very self-conscious of its weakness as a minority. but its rank-and-file, formed of moderate families such as my own, is as good sectarian people as they come, they are 'moderate' because they don't want to kill the Shia, that doesn't mean they don't hate them.

my aunt, who doesn't even wear hjiab, got a habit of printing out the sort of anti-Shia sectarian fliers and distributes them around...

Don't forget my uncle, whose idea of a reconciliation strategy consists of nuking all the Shia, as he tell me from his comfortable couch.

Of course, this never transpires in public, because two of my uncles got married to Shia before everybody started wearing hijab.

My mother, whom I regarded in my Muslim days as the epitome of what a non-sectarian, cosmopolitan Muslim is having a hard time with me whenever I bug her about my more informed crticisms of some disgusting historical or religious events in Islam, I recently told her that voting for Islamic parties means voting for the division of Iraq, she responded in the same way as my cousins, "It's not because I'm sectarian, it's because I trust them, they're honest [because they're religious]." I said, I'm sure there are pretty decent honest folks in al-Dawa party, would you vote for them? She said "of course not. Their religion is different from ours, to each his own, my boy." To each his own! To each his own piece of the country! what a hypocritical bunch you all are!

Those people will never change their mind, they simply can't, Islam is their raison d'etre. Islam is what made them powerful, it's what gives them purpose, they see how something's wrong, but they try to work some excuses around it, and in the end you will find them voting for those people "they serve True Islam(c)", and then of course there are the annoying people who tell you "Oh, it's politicization of Islam that hurt it so", "Oh, those parties do not represent Islam", until we find that magical version of Islam that all the scholars, dynasties, and ayatollahs have been unable to locate in the past 1400 years (ever since Ali died, or to be more precise, since Umar, who really was the first Arab emperor and colonizer, died), we have to stick with your cute excuse "Ha! Yesterday was different from Today, Ha! The clerics are the ones who get it wrong", it's cameldung, of course, because Islam is an eternal system of government that is fit for all times, even though it thinks comets are divine rockets launched at demons who eavesdrop on God's oval office, and it never separated from politics ; Those people will always find some other Islamist dumbfuck to vote for, because the error is not in the character of a certain person, and in a country where there are two versions of Islam, it's pretty hard to actually act towards people who curse your saints or killed your Imams as your countrymen when you take that sort of shit seriously.

In fact the entire idea of a country means that you have to forget the terrible blood that's been shed between your countrymen, let me ask you this, how could you build any sense of national identity when your countrymen are celebrating their civil war anniversary (Ashoura) passionately every year? To lament the memory of some asshole who unfortunately inherited none of the good qualities of his father except for one : his pompous arrogance, arrogance so huge to think he can stop the birth of an empire by only his name and a bunch of women and children. Do you know why Sunni-Shii tensions go high on Ashura every year, because it's always been this way, they fought over it in 2006 the way they used to fight it in the streets of Abbasid Baghdad, and those hate-mongering Passion Play Ziyarat only serve to remind them of their civil wars, with on side feverishly denying it and the others obsessively trying to prove it, who in France is upset now about the terrible French Wars of Religion? How would Catholic French feel if Protestant Frenchmen would hold an anniversary every year for their martrys?! How is that healthy for a true united nation. Imagine showing The Passion of The Christ all-year long, and taking it very seriously. Since you won't take my words for value here they are on the tongue of the Iraq Info God, Hanna Batatu : "But Islam in Iraq has been more a force of division rather than integration." (p. 17)

and forget secularism, okay I'm told that the Sunni are somehow more 'secular' (and by that, I persume they mean the honor-killing tribes of al-Ramadi, who subscribe to a code of laws even more ancient than Islam), Iraq is a Holy Land for Ali's sake! The marjiya has been established there for several centuries now, I don't think people will just up and say 'fuck it' to Sistani, we're light years away from any mass awakening such as the French Revolution, or any Revolution. Democracy in Iraq will always, always yield those results, if we let people vote, this is what we're going to get, If America truly cares about Iraq, it would have acted to Iraq's democracy the way it acted towards Palestine's democracy, but this theocratic baby is born and raised by Freedom-Loving Uncle Sam, whose biggest friend in the region is the Wahhabi counterpart of backwardness.

So choose democracy, and you get theocracy, which will highlight those differences we could afford to ignore under a secular regime, the Sunnis will never accept it except when they're all but obliterated. What's left? Secular Strongman? been there my friends. This is why modern Iraq was always ruled by injustice, some people will always be forced not to have it their way. It's either this, or true separation.

I'm too angry to be articulate, I'll try to be once I calm down. It seems, inexplicably, that Mister Ghost, my nemesis, has reached conclusions similar to mine, unfortunately, the hateful article he links to is all true.

I got back to listening to Shia masoshistic flagellations recently, they bring me to the edge of crying sometimes, which is pretty ironic considering how much I hate al-Hussein, I just realized that my avatar is dressed in green, my name is Abbas and my blog is called 'Shaqshaqa', I'd probably fake it as a good Shia citizen in our future state.

"O Mahdi, who never forgets his vengeance"
"O Mahdi, we anxiously await the return"
"Don't forgive them, cut off their ancestry"
"For they are the ones who cut off the apostle's"
"He who denies the breaking of the rib inhabits the hellfire!"
-anti-Sunni Shia latmiya (although could be directed at Fadalallah)
يلما تنسى ثارك
ملينا انتظارك
يتأملك يالمنتظر ضلع الوديعة
السيف بيمينك ما تغفى عنك
لا والذي جن و انس صارت تعبده
كوم التكيدك تصلبها بيدك
عالشجرة من اول صنم و الثاني بعده
الأول تصلبه ثارك تطلبه
و تطالب بذاك الفدك و الحق ترده
وللثاني تكصد من عنده تنشد
لمن كسر ضلع الطهر يا غاية عنده
من يبدي الندامة لا تقبل كلامه
هو الذي بيده كسر ضلع الوديعة
لا تغفرلهم اقطع نسلهم
ذوله الذي كطعوا نسل سيد البرية
بارينا رايد حفظ الأماجد
هو الحفظ نسل النبي رغم الاذية
الماضي نعوفه الحاضر نشوفه
جم زاهد بزاهد ترك نهج الرعية
بأسم الديانة يصرح لسانه
وبلا حجج ينكر كسر ضلع الزجية
واليلزم عناده متفيده العبادة
يسكن صقر كلمن نكر ضلع الوديعة


******
NOTE: After accusations of copying entire paragraphs, al-Dabbagh has removed this article, but I found through the Wayback Machine here.

117 comments:

Jeffrey said...

Bruno,

No, American warmongers, this was the utterly foreseeable result of your meddling, and if y'all weren't so busy applying idiot Hollywood solutions to complex, real world problems, not to mention having your heads lodged firmly up your rectums, the bloodbath might have been averted.

Only a dumbass like you Bruno could miss the main point of Abbas's blog entry. He's saying clearly that the core of the problem in Iraq has NOTHING to do with the Americans. The source of the problem is within the Iraqis themselves and their inability to look past religious sectarianism.

You're a complete joke.

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Abbas Hawazin said...

Actually, you're the joke Jeffrey, I never remember an incident where you didn't try and work things to the interest of preconceptions, you never bother to consider for even one bit that you might be wrong.
It's true that this is an Iraqi problem, but I also think that the neo-cons who planned this war already knew about all this before they attempted this adventure. They're raising up the Shia theocracy as the future alternative for the Wahhabi theocracy to be in bed with. Just fuck off and don't pretend you're our friends.

Jeffrey said...

Abbas,

Just fuck off and don't pretend you're our friends.

My God! What language!

Listen to me closely, Abbas. Just one of the many fantastic aspects of the invasion of Iraq was that we got to practice with a lot of the new gear we had designed and built for new conflicts, like our Predator drones and a whole new arsenal of JDAMs. Nothing like REAL WAR to see if they work (thanks). And racing across the desert in our kick-ass M1A1 Abrams tanks was a BLAST! What could be more fun, Abbas? I still remember the LIVE video images of the entire desert covered with a wide range of vehicles from the US military as far as the eye could see, a cloud of dust rising behind us and we rolled to Baghdad.

Hey, too bad the SPECIAL and MORE SPECIAL and REALLY REALLY SUPER SPECIAL REPUBLICAN GUARD turned out to be half-assed fighters who eventually stripped out of their uniforms and started walking back to Adhamiya in their underwear.

Heh heh heh.

In your face, Abbas. It's ALL GOOD.

By the way, I really liked your blog entry. It's very DRAMATIC. You're like an Arab Nietzsche: GOD IS DEAD! Just as Nietzsche thought that Europe was a sick carcass, you look at your fellow Arabs and see a bunch fucked-up bozos who snort lines of Islamic powder to keep them jacked-up and high on jihad and ready to slit the next guy's throat. Are you right? Maybe. Other Iraqis disagree with you. And Caesar, who actually LIVES in Iraq, seems to be getting along okay and the people around him don't seem so extreme as your family and the people you hang around with. So it's hard to say. You seem to think that Muslims, Arabs, and Iraqis (no matter who they are or what they follow) are hopeless cases. I guess we'll see. Other groups have changed, but it could be your crew is just too terminal.

Hey, whatever happened to Iraq Blog Count? Jeez, you really must be pissed off that Iraqi Bloggers Central, founded by none other than the original Psycho Sicko American, buried that blog, huh?

Abbas, c'mon, just admit how much you secretly ADMIRE me. It's okay.

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touta said...

What I disagree with in general is that politics and religion have actually been placed in front of the welfare of Iraqis.
As Nabil Al-azzawi once said "they won't leave". People have screwed up iraq far too much, to think about leaving. Even as I walked the streets today, resentment can be tasted in the air, and I doubt its towards each other. its because of the situation. The depression of hearing bombs as you sleep, and unsecurity and lack of EVERYTHING. (thanks america, your endless sanctions just screams humane treatment of people...)
Oh and believe me, iraqis are saying 'fuck it to sistani'. The other day in a petrol queue, a shia from basra openly swore passionatley at sistani. .
Oh, and the civil violence between iraqis? Secretley, I have thought that this is just the way that a few thousand pissed off, testestorone fuelled guys (and perhaps girls in diyala) are releasing their anger. Iraqis have been put through soo much shit, courtesy of ourselves and others, that the nation is bound to have some idiots lurking around. But there's always the new generation, which promises to be even more fucked up than before, courtesy of images such as abu ghraib and the lack of water and electricity, but hey, iraqis are too preoccupied with modelling their underwear, to wash and have electricity, right jeffrey?
Although the situation in Iraq feels hopeless, there is a shred of hope left, and for me, that's enough

Jeffrey said...

Touta,

From following the Iraqi bloggers over the last five years, I've learned that the majority of Iraqis seems to be doing the same as other people around the world, working and trying to do the best for their families, and couldn't give a fuck about Abu Ghraib. Most Iraqis know the difference between having to wear underwear on your head and being hung from a hook and electrocuted to death.

I agree with you that a lot of the violence is probably coming from a few thousand dead-enders and common criminals.

Listen, I don't know if Iraq will become a stable democracy or not. It's up to YOU GUYS. Either work together or kill each other. I hope you work together, of course, but if all you really want to do is kill each other, then you should probably do it sooner rather than later and just get it over with. All this TALK is tedious in the extreme. People thought a civil, sectarian war was almost inevitable a few years ago, but it hasn't materialized. Sounds like Abbas is disappointed. His family, from what he's told us, would really like to string up a few Shia. Too bad they're living in Jordan and Syria now. Heh.

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touta said...

Unfortunatley, you really don't know iraqi men. They are all just talk. That's why some people refuse to believe that the suicide bombers and militias are iraqis, but rather blame it on other arab countries/iran/israel.
In fact, the other day when discussing who would make a good leader for Iraq, and I replied "a woman", you probably could hear the laughter from abroad.
As well as this, the fact that all educated people with one dinar have left Iraq, must be taken into account. Of course all there will ever be is talks. A few mercedes benz cars pass daily through the streets of baghdad, no doubt carrying politicians, but the rest of the nation? They wait in endless queues wondering whether this is all a dream.
I have spoken to absolutley no Iraqi who doesn't want Iraq to progress, but the problem now, is in the upcoming election, does it actually matter who anyone votes for?
Sunni Saddam in power=corruption+sanctions,
Shia Maliki in power=mercedes benz for some+patients missing legs from another bomb attack.
And as for a secular politician? You have a better chance of finding a unicorn in the north pole, than of such a politician here. My solution has currently been to smile and hope for the best. Your solution?

Don Cox said...

"How would Catholic French feel if Protestant Frenchmen would hold an anniversary every year for their martrys?! " _____ Exactly this goes on in Northern Ireland, and until very recently it caused big problems. The tension has eased a bit since the power-sharing agreement came into force.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

It's true that this is an Iraqi problem, but I also think that the neo-cons who planned this war already knew about all this before they attempted this adventure.

Well, you are free to think whatever you want, Abbas. Doesn't make you right, though. But it's nice to see that you apparently don't think we will be invading Iran anytime soon.

Just fuck off and don't pretend you're our friends.

Mmmmm....ummmmm...no. Sorry. (I am assuming you were talking about Americans in general here.)

Anyway, a very interesting post.

Abbas, what you don't seem to realize when a lot of us read this kind of thing is that we've seen the bigotry, and the hatred, and the down right stubborn attitude of people just like you describe. Nope, it's not easy to change people, but if you don't even try, you are assured of failure. It takes a constant drip, drip, drip, like water on stone, to change attitudes.

Hey, I even got Annie to admit there are moderate Republicans out there! Really. Yeah, I know, I was just as shocked too.

Jeffrey said...

Touta,

Sober and sobering comments. You're in Iraq right now, I assume. Well, that gives your remarks more authority than Abbas's, sitting in Jordan now for his second or third year (I've lost count). But you seem to be just as pessimistic as Abbas. And the source of your pessimism, as with Abbas, seems to be the Iraqi people themselves. Let me ask you, if you don't mind: is your family also Sunni. I think it was RhusLancia on another thread who suggested that Abbas's pessimism may simply be tied to the fact that his group (Sunnis) lost the most power in the deposition of Saddam Hussein. Do you think this colors your views?

Listen, if you don't think there's any difference between living under a dictator (in a country that you can't leave and whose police force invades and takes a starring role in your nightmares) and living under a majority-elected leader, then it probably is best just to "smile and hope for the best."

You've made some excellent comments that cut to the bone of the issue. Are you and Abbas correct then in urging that we just abandon the Iraqis because they are simply a bunch of malingering shits anyway who wouldn't know freedom and democracy if it hit them over the head?

We've come to a very odd situation, don't you think? Those of us from the West are asking Iraqis to give this new style of governance a chance, while the Iraqis are telling us we are naive for suggesting that Iraqis could conform to this new system and that Iraqis in general, due to the corrosive effects of Islam, are hopeless cases. Very strange.

We say, like Obama to the Americans, "Yes, you can." You say, "NO, WE CAN'T, fools."

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Abbas Hawazin said...

what i was describing is how 'mainstream' Muslim families think, I think there is some truth of course to the collective Sunni resentment of the loss of power, but that's only because I know these guys in private, I tried to give examples to illustrate that both sides are very hostile to each other in private.
Islam is a very big part of the problem, sometimes invisibly so, it has a very far-reaching influence because it is basically the soul of this entire community, even for people who are not religious per se, it probed deep even within secular offshoots like Pan-Arabism. We cannot have any meaningful state when religion is dominant in ANY fashion. People will not choose Iraq over Islam, and they will not understand that "Iraq" is AGAINST "Islam". some Sunnis may think so because they are forced to acknolwedge that Iraq is majority Shi'i, that's why they openly say 'but Iraqi identity is fake.'

As for Caesar, he's living on the same wavelength I used to live on three or four years ago, I wasn't interested in politics and I detested the subject intensely, should you take the words of a horny twentysomething as a proof that all is well? of course he's not going to post about politics, he is simply not interested. All he wants to do is get laid.

Abbas Hawazin said...

my dear Touta,

Your spirit brings a smile to my face, although I am not much older than you, and you are not naive at all, I bask guiltily in your hope, and I hope you keep it burning.

But those Iraqis who would say 'fuck it' to Sistani, will adopt some other schmuck, like Sadr, or Fadhila maybe. So far, the only truly secular options we have are Mithal al-Alsui and Ayad Jamal al-Din, they lack hard power unfortunately and it is questionable if people such as me and you believe in Iraq enough to fight those militias, belief in a piece of land is nothing compared to belief in a piece of spiritual heaven.

Jeffrey said...

Abbas,

As for Caesar, he's living on the same wavelength I used to live on three or four years ago, I wasn't interested in politics and I detested the subject intensely, should you take the words of a horny twentysomething as a proof that all is well? of course he's not going to post about politics, he is simply not interested. All he wants to do is get laid.

Heh heh. Fair enough. I guess one could argue, however, that it would be much better for the future of Iraq if all the twenty-somethings, following Caesar's lead, channeled all their energy on skirt-chasing (burka-chasing?) and getting laid. Now I would like to see THAT public relations campaign!

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Jeffrey said...

Oh yeah, Shaggy seems to be doing okay, too, but I don't know if you actually consider him to be Iraqi. It looks like he'll running the farm by himself before too long.

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touta said...

Although I do hate to admit it, but pessimism is my current mood. And trust me, its hard to avoid whatever your religion. Our neighbourhood is a perfect example of how different iraqi religions can get along, but with every visit outside my neighbourhood, I'm faced with propaganda banners and snarling faces from all 'sects'. And I can honestly say that even if yazidis (so called devil worshippers) ruled Iraq, I wouldn't give a damn, as long as that meant things would improve for the people themselves. I don't really have much right to complain, Baghdad has improved quite a lot, but soon, I'm travelling to another governate-Diyala, and unfortunatley, I am already expecting to be pelted with stones by own family members if I wear jeans. Now, can you see where the problem lies? When surrounded by a majority who completely refuse to listen or open their minds by a millimetre, it gets tiring to continue.
But nevertheless, hope does remain as long as I don't give up, and I suppose that its our fault for not giving Hope a chance, let alone democracy. The problem is not that if America/Britain/The world abandon Iraq, the problem is if Iraqis abandon Iraq, and hope of it being rebuilt.
Oh, and Abbas, you may be right, perhaps Iraqis are just going to follow the next mustached/turbaned idiot, in hope of gaining something out of their tortured existence ('a piece of spiritual heaven'), but to this I reply, Every Dog has its Day.
:)
As for me, I'm going to fight those militias by laughing. And do you really want to know my religion? Its like a 'hornets nest' as you americans say. (no, I'm not yazidi). And no, I'm not baathy either. I'm touta. :D

Jeffrey said...

Touta,

I don't really have much right to complain, Baghdad has improved quite a lot, but soon, I'm travelling to another governate-Diyala, and unfortunatley, I am already expecting to be pelted with stones by own family members if I wear jeans.

I guess you're a young Iraqi woman then, right? Can you wear jeans in Baghdad right now? I hope that isn't a foolish question. And if you don't wear jeans, what exactly CAN you wear?

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Jeffrey said...

Touta,

By the way, getting to listen to Iraqis talk to each other was one of the original hopes when I started Iraqi Bloggers Central four and a half years ago. As Americans, we're used to debates, sometimes heated, between people with different views. For some reason, those conversations between Iraqis -- at least in the English-language Iraqi blogosphere -- have been few and far between. I then hoped that the Iraqi Blogodrome would remedy that, but that website has been moribund for months now.

Anyway, it's great just listening to you and Abbas discuss these basic issues about the future (or lack of a future) for Iraq. Abbas, more than most of the other Iraqi bloggers, has been willing to engage other Iraqis in conversation, and that's all good in my book. Not only that, we've been able to follow Abbas (ex-Konfused Kid) as he has wrestled with some of the toughest sociological and historical subjects one can imagine, from reading and meditating on Ali al-Wardi to reviewing the origins of the Shia-Sunni split and the place of Shiism in Iraqi history. The sad part, as he has recently indicated, is that all of his reading has ripped away far too many illusions and now he stands alone without racial or national identity to support him in tough times. Just as you belong to "touta," a singular being not affiliated with larger elements of society, Abbas is also isolated from the dominant social groups in his country. The question now is whether the new Iraq will tolerate those who don't identify one way or the other, I guess.

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touta said...

Of course I'm allowed to wear jeans in Baghdad, but the problem is baghdad is baghdad. Think about the rest of the country. Most adher to strict etiquette rules concerning youth/teenagers. And especially in the villages,where most may be uneducated, due to security problems, or simply lack of seeing education as important as marriage or money, even wearing baggy trousers is a big faux pas for girls.
And clever move side tracking there...hey iraq is hanging on a political balance, but what i'm wearing is just as important. So what are you wearing? *wink*. :) Joke, what I'm trying to say is that Iraqis are polite to others-no one threatens me because of what I wear, but at the same time, the growing trend of wearing 'terrain coloured curtains' has increased. Unfortunatly in iraq, women have taken a back seat. They worry constantly over their family, and take little part in politics, or when they do, don't think for themselves.

And yes, I have bought a 'curtain' but its bright green and blue, not terrain coloured. :) And it will be worn in only diyala. Teenagers rebel by drugs and having babies-I'm rebelling by wearing colour. Oh, and another reason why girls dress conservatively out of choice? Men here are 'starved' is all i can say to describe it. They will whistle, jeer, stare at anything as long as its a female. Again, this is a direct consequence of the brain drain that Iraq is suffering.As well as the fact that Iraqis have all suddenly found religion overnight. But in my opinion, its not religion that is the problem. its the Iraqis' frame of mind. I've noticed that we are so easily influenced as a nation. We will be secular one minute, talking about how religion is just a personal belief that helps us feel our life is not meaningless, and the next minute, we will be printing propaganda leaflets, and giving talks about how our sect is the right one.
I suppose all I can hope for, is that our generation puts up with the education system, and learn to think for ourselves, and so far, the future generation is looking promising. I think that it has dawned to all Iraqi youth that this crap is not worth putting up with.

touta said...

There is a future for Iraq, although the depression and anger building up, due to a lack of improvement in iraq, is causing me and other to have a negative view. I do identify as being a Iraqi, but especially when the older generation constantly hammers into you how Iran/America/Israel will split Iraq up, and we will be 'worse off than palestinians', its hard to hold onto that national identity, though I will never give up hope on iraq.
The thing is, once you see different sects ripping apart your country, once people ask you, I can't reply, because I refuse to align myself with one group. As one of my westerner friends asked me: "Are you Sunni, Shia or Kurdish?". No matter what I reply to this, they will no doubt lay into what I think of the other groups. So i don't reply to maintain the fact that i don't care what religion or ethnicity my fellow country men is, because as long as they are law abiding and want the best for Iraq, then they have as much right as anyone else to live a peaceful and happy life in iraq. :)

Anand said...

""O Mahdi, who never forgets his vengeance"
"Don't forgive them, cut off their ancestry"
"For they are the ones who cut off the apostle's"
"He who denies the breaking of the rib inhabits the hellfire!"

Oh my God! This is terrible. To honor the great Imams is one thing. But why blame modern Sunnis for what Takfiri wackos did in the 7th through 9th centuries?

Abbas, there must be some nonsectarian Iraqis? Mithal al-Alsui and Ayad Jamal al-Din? I don't think that Sistani thinks in this way. He doesn't, does he?

Abbas, the reason you think "the neo-cons who planned this war already knew about all this before they attempted this adventure" is because you aren't American. We Americans know that our President didn't know the difference between Sunni and Shia until right before the invasion of Iraq. And our "neoconservatives" didn't know all that much more than the President. You would be stunned at how little we Americans knew about Iraq or the Arab world in 2002 and 2003.

I think that perhaps Wolfowitz knew something. He was an idealist do gooder. But his advice was not followed. Wolfowitz seemed to like Iraq's Shia leaders. His girl friend was (and probably still is) a Shia Iraqi.

Anand said...

Abbas, the vast majority of us Americans know we massively messed up in Iraq and that many Iraqis suffered as a result. One American at least, yours truly, is very sorry about the huge number of American mistakes. We were lead by a president as dumb and uninformed as a door knob, and a defence secretary who didn't want to fight a war in Iraq and therefore didn't allow the US military to wage a COIN war until the end of 2006.

The mistakes are too numerous to go into. Our CENTCOM commander Tommy Franks knew jack about Iraq. He gave orders to leave Iraq almost immediately in early April, 2003, thereby not allowing for a real:
1) ISF training effort
2) GoI governance development effort
3) Security for the Iraqi people

Rumsfeld and Franks believed that it was the resposibility of the "Iraqis" to provide for these things, and didn't want to create "dependency" by having America provide for these things. They wanted America out as quickly as possible . . . and hence the disaster that followed.

If anyone things that General Franks knew about the subtleties of Iraqi Shia and Sunni politics, I have a bridge I would like to sell you. ;-)

An Italian. said...

Dear Abbas,

I`m always astonished by the exquisite courtesy of you eeeevil Ayrabs and Eye-wackians.

Most bloggers, when faced with a post such as Rat Jeffrey`s 7:44 PM one, would have kicked the uncouth vermin out ...

Actually I`m wondering about how it could happen that the citizens of Astoria, New York, forgot to conduct pest-control these past few years ... I do hope that now, with the Suntanned Messiah elected, they`ll stop overlooking such a stringent necessity, and nail down this foul Rat Jeffrey Schuster by its scaly tail, whacking it til dead with baseball bats !

Well, actually, if one is against cruelty against animals, possibly the proper way to dispose of Vermin Schuster should be a well-aimed sledgehammer blow instead ...

The, ehm, `dialogue` would go like this:

[Sewer Rat Jeffrey] Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak ...

[Sledgehammer of Justice] TCHACK !


Heh heh heh.

LOL !

An Italian. said...

Dear Abbas,

I`m always astonished by the exquisite courtesy of you eeeevil Ayrabs and Eye-wackians.

Most bloggers, when faced with a post such as Rat Jeffrey`s 7:44 PM one, would have kicked the uncouth vermin out ...

Actually I`m wondering about how it could happen that the citizens of Astoria, New York, forgot to conduct pest-control these past few years ... I do hope that now, with the Suntanned Messiah elected, they`ll stop overlooking such a stringent necessity, and nail down this foul Rat Jeffrey Schuster by its scaly tail, whacking it til dead with baseball bats !

Well, actually, if one is against cruelty against animals, possibly the proper way to dispose of Vermin Schuster should be a well-aimed sledgehammer blow instead ...

The, ehm, `dialogue` would go like this:

[Sewer Rat Jeffrey] Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak ...

[Sledgehammer of Justice] TCHACK !


Heh heh heh.

LOL !

An Italian. said...

Dear Abbas,

I`m always astonished by the exquisite courtesy of you eeeevil Ayrabs and Eye-wackians.

Most bloggers, when faced with a post such as Rat Jeffrey`s 7:44 PM one, would have kicked the uncouth vermin out ...

Actually I`m wondering about how it could happen that the citizens of Astoria, New York, forgot to conduct pest-control these past few years ... I do hope that now, with the Suntanned Messiah elected, they`ll stop overlooking such a stringent necessity, and nail down this foul Rat Jeffrey Schuster by its scaly tail, whacking it til dead with baseball bats !

Well, actually, if one is against cruelty against animals, possibly the proper way to dispose of Vermin Schuster should be a well-aimed sledgehammer blow instead ...

The, ehm, `dialogue` would go like this:

[Sewer Rat Jeffrey] Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak ...

[Sledgehammer of Justice] TCHACK !


Heh heh heh.

LOL !

An Italian. said...

Dear Abbas,

I`m always astonished by the exquisite courtesy of you eeeevil Ayrabs and Eye-wackians.

Most bloggers, when faced with a post such as Rat Jeffrey`s 7:44 PM one, would have kicked the uncouth vermin out ...

Actually I`m wondering about how it could happen that the citizens of Astoria, New York, forgot to conduct pest-control these past few years ... I do hope that now, with the Suntanned Messiah elected, they`ll stop overlooking such a stringent necessity, and nail down this foul Rat Jeffrey Schuster by its scaly tail, whacking it til dead with baseball bats !

Well, actually, if one is against cruelty against animals, possibly the proper way to dispose of Vermin Schuster should be a well-aimed sledgehammer blow instead ...

The, ehm, `dialogue` would go like this:

[Sewer Rat Jeffrey] Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak ...

[Sledgehammer of Justice] TCHACK !


Heh heh heh.

LOL !

An Italian. said...

Uh, sorry for the multiple posting, Abbas !
(due to a different computer ... :().

An Italian. said...

@ All.

If anybody thinks that the unclean Snakeworm `Anand` knows fuckall about Iraq (or any other thing), "I have a bridge I would like to sell you", LOL, LOL, LOL !

Anand said...

Italian, I liked your comments to Dr. Mohammed, and your comments to Abbas. You have an amazing sense of humor. So let's bury the hatchet?

An Italian. said...

Let`s bury the nauseating, false Snakeworm `anand` first !!!

Anonymous said...

I also think that the neo-cons who planned this war already knew about all this before they attempted this adventure.

of course. i left my comment over @ haloscan.

youta when the older generation constantly hammers into you how Iran/America/Israel will split Iraq up, and we will be 'worse off than palestinians', its hard to hold onto that national identity,

you have to break people down to get them to bend to your will. it's part of psychological warfare. national identity is not reinforced when the goal is to divide people. the older generation know this and they likely understand what the plan is.

lyn, don't ever use me to 'prove' your lame ass bullshit points. the gop is run by fanatical freaks and the party is doomed. that said, you didn't get me to admit there were moderate republicans, i could have told you that all along. the problem for the party, is the moderates are running like rats off a sinking ship. your party is overrun by social conservatives and war mongers that leave very little room for any 'moderate' to align. their breathen are so corrupt and criminal it becomes irrelevant whatever advantageous aspects of conservatism might offer. you tried pushing me into some corner stating i supported all dems, which is ridiculuous and absurd. and speaking of drip drip dripping, i do believe it was you who admitted to not really giving a flying fuck about little things like voting to protect the constitution while hypocritically playing 'in denial' that laying down your life for your country wasn't worth a damn if your constitution wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

don't you ever go jumping threads to twist my words to give yourself a pat on the back you don't deserve.

jeffery, you are beyond scum. you and rhus are simply gruesome. thank god i never run into scum like you in my everyday life. you and rhus and the rest of your government bloggers go take a bow and pop champagne now that iraq is in ruins.

annie

RhusLancia said...

Citizen Lynnette, good job changing Citizen Annie's mind!

Yes You Can!

Praise Öbama.

Anonymous said...

from The Limits of Power: The end of American Exceptionalism by Andrew J. Bacevich

Pick the group: blacks, Jews, women, Asians, Hispanics, working stiffs gays, the handicapped- in every case, the impetus for providing equal access to the rights guaranteed by the Constitution originated among pinks, lefties, liberals, and bleeding-heart fellow travelers. When it came to ensuring that every American should get a fair shake, the contribution of modern conservatism has been essentially nil. Had Martin Luther King counted on William F. Buckley and the National Review to take up the fight against racial segregation in the 1950s and 1950s, Jim Crow would still be alive and well.

......

. . . American grand strategy since the era of Ronald Reagan, and especially throughout the era of George W. Bush, has been characterized by attempts to wish reality away. Policymakers have bee engaged in a de facto Ponzi scheme intended to extend indefinitely the American line of credit. The fiasco of the Iraq war and the semi-permanent U. S. occupation of Afghanistan illustrate the results and prefigure what is yet to come if the crisis of American profligacy continues unabated.

.....

Although the text of the Constitution has changed but little since FDR's day, the actual system of governance conceived by the framers - a federal republic deriving its authority from the people in which the central government exercises limited and specified powers - no longer pertains


the modern day gop is the party of imperialism. it has erased all semblance of 'moderate' republican values.

nobody 'changed my mind', you are wallowing in self delusion:

Reinhold Niebuhr once observed that "the most significant moral characteristic of a nation is its hypocrisy." In international politics, the chief danger of hypocrisy is that it inhibits self-understanding. The hypocrite ends up fooling mainly himself.

except i don't believe you, rhus, are deceived one iota. you are hosting off american exceptualism to further your greedy genocidal maniacal goals, like every good little neocon. so what if it topples the superpower, so long as it extinguishes your enemy. you don't love what america used to stand for, you just love using her as the shield from which to rape, pillage and enslave. anyone who is 'moderate', whatever nationality or religion they are can recognize the modern day republican party for exactly what it is.

RhusLancia said...

Citizen Annie, if any "hosting" I am personally doing ends up weakening and toppling the Imperial Superpower, wouldn't you see this through your ideological blinders as a good thing, and hope I derive some "karmic honor" therefrom?

Citizen, you are clearly wallowing in your own self delusion and hypocrisy here. I'm sorry the president elect is not radical or leftward enough for you. Maybe next time, eh?

Praise Öbama.

touta said...

Abbas, what are your thoughts on the military pact?
Hope all is well in Jordan.
:)

Anonymous said...

rhus, not sure where you are going w/this 'citizen' speak. surely any fool can see there is as much conformity in the zionist neonut legion rallying their breathen in lockstep, not that it's working out so well. it is the dems who have the reputation for non compliance, as in herding cats. but your efforts are noticed. you going to keep this up for the next 8 years? don't expect the uniformity in message team gop/neozion has to offer. nice try tho.

moving right along to the theme of the post, the US reinforcing islam to bring 'stability' to iraq. (shades of israel reinforcing hamas back in the good ol days?)

what, this isn't the theme of the post? oh well, you still may find this interesting.

Iraq Detention Imams Work for $2 Billion Private Equity Fund

REEP, which does business under the trade name Operational Support and Services (OSS), "advises DoD (Department of Defense) personnel on all local nationals (Imams and Social Workers) who may be hired to work in TF-134 programs," according to a TF-134 spokesman.

As will be discussed in greater detail later, the work of the imams, which is shrouded in secrecy, appears to violate international principles protecting religious freedom. It is work that may be unwelcome news to GI Partners investors, such as public employee pension funds reeling from the economic downturn that is traceable in significant measure to the Iraq war.

"Will Not Be Disclosed"

The Islamic Discussion Program operated by REEP - IDP in military parlance - employs about 60 Iraqi imams, according to a TF-134 spokesman. In a command briefing paper, TF-134 describes the Iraqi religious leaders working in its facilities as "certified, trusted and moderate Islamic clerics" offering detainees "a broader understanding of Islam."

We attempted to interview REEP employees on the work of the imams, but they also declined to provide salary and curriculum information, citing contractual agreements that prevent the company from providing any information on the IDP or other activities without the permission of the US military. One REEP official said that a reason for the secrecy about REEP's work in the detention centers is because the detention centers are confining "a lot of difficult, bad people" and information must be withheld "for our employees' safety."


so just to clarify that, Global Innovation (GI) Partners LLP, a California- and London-based private equity firm, sells, among other things: base maintenance for US military forces in Iraq... also manages hundreds of millions of dollars for California and Oregon public employees pension funds and.. pension funds in the Netherlands and the Middle East, are hired by the US military to run (secret) Islamic discussion, civics and vocational programs in its Iraq detention centers which hold about 16,600 Iraqis and are under the command of Multi-National Force - Iraq's Task Force 134.

The imams work in a "counter-insurgency" program....the heart of the program - its religious arguments, discussion outlines and methods of persuasion - is secret...because the detention centers are confining "a lot of difficult, bad people" .

what is wrong w/this picture. why aren't our pension funds investing billions of dollars to train 'difficult and bad ' people about secular life? maybe because somebody who is in charge of making money has determined that secularism isn't profitable.

however, war is profitable, at least for Global Innovation (GI) Partners LLP.

i may be mistaken but i think these 16,000 prisoners are going to be turned over to iraq authority if and when parliament agrees to the sofa. i wonder if their secret islam studies will continue.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Abbas,

You will note that when dealing with stubborn, and one might even say pig-headed, individuals that there will always be some backsliding. You may think you can converse rationally with them but they will turn around and bite you on the *cough* *cough* er...never mind.

belief in a piece of land

A country is much, much more than a piece of land. It is a shared history, a loyalty to something larger than oneself, a feeling of connection to people even when you don't know them. Just ask the people of the Maldives, who are shopping around for a place to relocate in case their land disappears with the advancing of the oceans.

Annie,

...you didn't get me to admit there were moderate republicans, i could have told you that all along.

Exactly. You just chose not to.

i do believe it was you who admitted to not really giving a flying fuck about little things like voting to protect the constitution

On the contrary, Annie. I do think that defending America is defending the constitution. And I will continue to do so. :)

Touta,

Believe it or not what you are describing is something women have struggled with for centuries. As I was reading "Palace Walk" by Naguib Mahfouz the one thought that kept circling in my mind was that I had stepped back in time and was reading about Victorian England. Crazy, I know. But that's what it felt like.

In the United States today there are any number of options for women. And we can thank any number of great American women who have fought for our rights for that. But I think you will still find areas of the country that are more conservative in regard to the roles of women. Achieving equality will always be a slow process with some backsliding.

Now, how does one actually change a society's way of thinking about these things? That is the $64,000 question. And I think the answer may be different for each society depending on the situation. We have used protest marches, lawsuits, peer pressure, education, you name it. They have started a program at one of the colleges here to try to educate men on, basically, treating women with respect. This to combat the occurence of date rape on campus. But it doesn't even have to be huge. If you can even get one man to think a little differently, it can have a snowball effect. I think it is also important for women raising children to raise them in a manner that promotes equality of the sexes. This would also apply to anything, really.

RhusLancia,

*sigh* As you see, Annie is a very hard nut to crack.

Italian,

When you log in you will note that at the end of each of your previous comments there is a little trashcan icon. If you click on that you can delete any unwanted comments. Feel free...;)

Jeffrey said...

Lynnette,

I have five sisters, all of them very independent and strong women, one of them a VP in large, multi-billion dollar company. The position of women in Iraq, from what I've read, is going to take a lot of effort, but they can proceed by taking one step at a time.

By the way, I've added Touta's blog to the IBC blogroll. I've just finished reading all of her entries and it turns out that she's also a very fine, observant blogger.

Italian,

When you log in you will note that at the end of each of your previous comments there is a little trashcan icon. If you click on that you can delete any unwanted comments. Feel free...;)


Oh no, you didn't. Ouch!

*

touta said...

lynnette,
The problem is that iraq is an accepting society for the most part, but sometimes the outdated thinking occasionally comes from the women themselves. But I suppose there is an imminent back lash on its way. Even I get suprised as some girls my age tell me about their recent dating. Although I have never blamed anything on religion, and would hate to ever do so, but their is a worrying thought of what would happen if Iraq continues heading down the deeply religious path. Would women's right suffer? I sincerely hope not.
Jeffrey,
A lot of work to improve the situation of women in Iraq? Not if I take large steps it won't. And the situation of women is not as dire as it sounds, but again, part of me thinks that perhaps women in general don't care. As Abbas mentions in his post, women have given up on work and a social life, and have found meaning in religion.

Anonymous said...

Exactly. You just chose not to.

lyn, in the format of iraqi blogs we usually don't get into domestic party politics. if i chose to debate domestic politics i would be hanging out on blogs that focused on domestic politics. iow, it didn't really come up. after obamas win you ask me specifically about rahms appointment at which point i ask you about your support for a dem, which i had never heard you mention before and why now. as usual you didn't qualify. we haven't discussed health care in the US either, that hardly means i choose not to discuss it. an absense of a topic makes no illusion you 'got me to admit' anything.

moving right along

I do think that defending America is defending the constitution.

i noticed you copied me here: A country is much, much more than a piece of land.. let's review MY WORDS AND MEANINGmy point is that 'the country' is not the land within our borders, it is the principles we hold dear that make us americans that are enshrined in our constitution. therefore it is hypocritical to challenge someone wrt defending 'the country' w/their life' (ie: joining the military) when you won't protect it with your vote (ie voting for a party that has THRASHED the principles that make this country what is is).

get it? IOW defending the constitution IS defending the country. joining the military is only defending the country if and when the commander in chief decides to keep his oath and defend the constitution, something bush has not done. there is a difference. our actions during this WOT has not defended the constitution, not in the least. they have weakened the country. bush has thrashed the constitution.

now, if you would like to debate this further why don't you go back to the thread you skipped out on after i cornered you. as in checkmate. obviously defending the constitution means little to you as you demonstrated earlier by admitting if a crime didn't impact you personally you could care less if we had laws to protect the innocent. i beleive your words were 'I've done nothing wrong, so I can't say that anyone spying on me would find much of interest'.

IOW, protecting AMERICAN VALUES ENSHRINED in the constitution really doesn't interest you. you have lots of nerve asking anyone to lay down their life for 'the country' when you don't even have the balls to defend it on a web page.

*sigh* As you see, Annie is a very hard nut to crack.

you won't ever be cracking me on this one lynn. that is because i have more than a mask/facade of what it means to be and think american, unlike yourself who apparently 'has no interest' in some very basic american concepts.
like say, the right to privacy.

Jeffrey said...

Touta,

A lot of work to improve the situation of women in Iraq? Not if I take large steps it won't.

I believe you.

*

Bruno said...

Abbas writes a really great post, and what response does he get?

Jeffrey and Anand?

It's like putting a shiny new quarter into the Coke machine and getting a steaming turd rolling out instead of a cold-drink.

Bruno said...

[abbas] "I also think that the neo-cons who planned this war already knew about all this before they attempted this adventure. They're raising up the Shia theocracy as the future alternative for the Wahhabi theocracy to be in bed with."

Agreed.

HERE is a really good article on this:


To understand why the neoconservatives and many of their allies were so sanguine about the Shia rise to power in Iraq, it's necessary to grasp three fatally flawed assumptions that shaped their view. First, the neocons and some Israeli strategists had long seen the Shia as "outsiders" opposed to the mainstream Arab (read: Sunni) nationalist current, and over decades had developed an affinity for the Shia as potential allies [...] Second, the neocons had been seduced by Chalabi, who convinced them that Iraq's Shia leaders would abandon their ties to Iran and rush to embrace a secular, pro-American political culture. [...] Third, the neocons believed that moderate, nonpolitical Shia in Iraq would establish Najaf, the Iraqi shrine city that is the holiest place in Shia Islam, as a new center of gravity that would overpower Qom, the clerical powerhouse city in Iran. They believed that the "good Shia," supposedly "quietist" ayatollahs such as Ali al-Sistani, would emerge to present a frontal challenge to Iran's militant "bad Shia," followers of the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. [...] "In the prewar period we held a number of meetings and confrontations with prominent Arabs, and they were shocked at how American policy-makers were quite prepared to see a Shia-dominated Iraq," says Patrick Clawson, a neoconservative scholar and Middle East expert at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Israelis and moderate Arabs alike came to Washington to underline that message, says Clawson. "What I found repeatedly was they would make the rounds in Washington, and they would be in shock at just how much the U.S. government had thought about that, and decided that that was OK."

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_shia_fellas

Bruno said...

Hi, Annie. :)

Bruno said...

Jeffrey's response is dictated by his Protestant sectarianism. He needs to look past the religious dogma and get a grip.

JG said...

It's like putting a shiny new quarter into the Coke machine and getting a steaming turd rolling out instead of a cold-drink.

Indeed, Bruno. I was just thinking the very same thing.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Jeffrey,

Thanks, I'll have to click over and check out her blog when I get a minute. So many places to visit, so little time (especially when I get sidetracked by Annie). I noticed you had a couple of new posts up too, but I haven't had the time to read them yet.

Oh no, you didn't. Ouch!

I couldn't resist. ;) lol!

Touta,

The problem is that iraq is an accepting society for the most part, but sometimes the outdated thinking occasionally comes from the women themselves.

Yes, I can understand. Sometimes it's just easier, and for some safer, to fall back on tradition, rather than take a risk by trying something new.

Have you ever seen the movie "North Country"? It's a true story about sexual discrimination in the work place. It happened in Minnesota. I'm not sure, if you are still in Iraq, if you can find it there. It is rather explicit. It is also very, very good. Sometimes even good people find it difficult to stand up and speak out.

Annie,

if i chose to debate domestic politics i would be hanging out on blogs that focused on domestic politics.

Really? Then why are you constantly bringing up things like the 2000 election, corporate personhood, domestic spying, the roles played by corporations in our economy, etc., in comments sections on Iraqi blogs?

Okay, so what is "IOW"? I have only ever seen you use that acronym. Haven't figured it out yet.

Annie, I don't care who you voted for. It is your right to vote as you please. I do feel that defending America is defending the constitution. Asking you if you would defend it with your life was not necessarily saying you had to join the military. It was a way of asking if you felt your country was worth fighting for.

Do I approve of domestic spying? Honestly? It depends. I think you need some hard evidence that someone is committing a crime to justifiy infringing on someone's privacy. I also feel that our law enforcement agencies need to be supplied with the tools needed to combat crime or terrorism. I do not want to see again that we could have prevented a 9/11 if only we had looked into some people's backgrounds more closely. By saying this I am not saying I want to live in Stalinist Russia. I believe there needs to be a balance.

now, if you would like to debate this further why don't you go back to the thread you skipped out on after i cornered you.

Huh? I have checked back a couple of times and you did not leave a response to my last comment on that thread. So I moved on to other conversations. And Bassam was very gracious about saying that we could continue our discussion if we chose.

But, I will go and check back when I get a minute.

as in checkmate.

lol! Oh, Annie, somehow I don't think you know the first thing about chess. But if it pleases you to declare some sort of victory, go ahead. Victory, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Now I have to get some work done...

Anonymous said...

Lynnette

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOW

There are three options, perhaps you want to take a guess?

//Marcus

Jeffrey said...

Bruno,

Jeffrey's response is dictated by his Protestant sectarianism. He needs to look past the religious dogma and get a grip.

Can anyone here understand what Bruno is saying here? I've read these two sentences five times and still don't get it. For the record, I was raised as a Roman Catholic in a town 99% Roman Catholic (Luxembourgers, Germans, and Irish), in northeastern Iowa, which is also mostly Catholic. These days I'm an atheist, but I do not see religion as evil. For many their religion is a solace and a major part of their community (like in the town where I grew up). Religious fanaticism is another matter. I disapprove of extreme forms of any religion (today it just happens to be Islam whose extremist adherents are dangerous to the rest of us).

*

Anonymous said...

hi bruno!

lyn, IOW: you can always google, very common acronym.
' In Other Words '

Then why are you constantly bringing up things like the 2000 election

lyn, it was a blog post about the presidential election, IOW about domestic politics, on an iraqi blog. bringing up domestic party politics was not 'my choice'. furthermore as an example of your duplicity take a look at how you segued a post about what is happening in iraq, to insert your bogus assertion you got me to 'admit' something about republicans, domestic party politics. thereby initiating this domestic politics right into this thread. and then you wonder how subjects come up, and if they don't come up, it is because i am 'choosing' not to discuss them?

you're a joke lyn, a circular clusterfuck. if you go back to the thread in question you can witness the lastest rethug garbage talking pts of the week being inserted by none other than...you. the crap about america being 'right centurist'. this is blatant pandering to rush limbaugh and all the other wingnuts who are somehow claiming some mandate based on an election that gave them no mandate whatsoever.

in the course of explaining why the gop has alienated tons of americans, that verifies what i (and many others) are of course aware WHY previously somewhat normal republicans are leaving the party, you escrue i am 'admiting something'? or you 'got me to admit'? i swear you will grab victory from the jaws of defeat however your little perverse brain can. won't make it reality.

Huh? I have checked back a couple of times and you did not leave a response to my last comment on that thread.

liar. i answered in less than 24 hrs, days ago. if your want my response to your anti constitutional anti american pandering to domestic spying and every other crime against the constitution by an administration/regime (that i am hoping beyond hope will completely vanish from the pages of time) you supported from day 1, go check it out.

"I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

little lynnipoo makes excuses for her support of thrashing the constitution.


bbbwwwwahhhhhhhh. Victory, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. by your standards we could all be living in constitutional crisis hell and you would be smelling the roses of a racist/zionist victory.

touche you worthless worm!

rhus, if any "hosting" I am personally doing ends up weakening and toppling the Imperial Superpower

of course. just as all the hideous things carrying out by your breathen have weakened the regime you support.

wouldn't you see this through your ideological blinders as a good thing, and hope I derive some "karmic honor" therefrom?

you mean like ultimately the holocaust was a good thing because it allowed the jews to have their own state. gee rhus, i guess in somebodies twisted mind everything could be construed as good.

as for 'hoping to derive karma', i think perhaps in your next life you may be evolved enough to have a concept of how karma works, i have tried and failed numerous times to pass on this knowledge to you and have failed repeatedly, i won't be trying again.

Anonymous said...

touta

What I disagree with in general is that politics and religion have actually been placed in front of the welfare of Iraqis.

what do you think of bruno's post and link?

The Shia Fellas How the Bush Administration and the Neocons got into bed with Iran's agents in Iraq.?



All of which raises some obvious questions: How could the neoconservatives, bitter enemies of Iran's ayatollahs, have supported the rise to power of Iran's closest allies? Why, even after it became clear that their Iraq adventure had gone awry, did they continue to defend the Shia religious parties and Chalabi? And why, even today, does the White House use its "surge" to prop up Maliki's government, Hakim, and the SCIRI Islamists? Despite the government's pretensions to neutrality in the Sunni-Shia civil war, American forces are objectively backing one side in that war.

do you still think (secretly) this is just the way that a few thousand pissed off, testestorone fuelled guys (and perhaps girls in diyala) are releasing their anger.

or does it ever occur to you that someone invading a country wishing to dominate that countries resources and obtain a permanent position in a part of the world that is strategically imperative for their long term dominance, that having those countries citizens make war with eachother might be in fact an effective way for the invading party to accomplish its mission alleviating the need to eliminate the enemy personally, thereby avoiding risking the lives of the invaders tropps, and risking ones reputation as actaully being a part of the genocide?

have you ever heard of daniel pipes? he's a neocon who described in an interview how civil war in iraq is 'cool' and not such a bad thing for the US.

People have screwed up iraq far too much, to think about leaving.

if empowering these religious fanatics in control of iraq was intended to weaken the state, as part of a tactic to an end goal why would you place your trust in the US to know what is best for iraqs future. and does it ever occur to you that any current violence adding merit to the idea the US should stay in iraq is in fact intended to guarentee it does stay?

touta said...

anonymous,
I have never even mentioned that I have placed my trust in the US to know what's best for Iraq, and of course further violence only adds to the length of stay of troops not only from the US but other countries in Iraq, thus not only undermining Iraq as a state, but also emphasises the fact that the Iraqis alone cannot make it, which I think is ridiculous, as no one has given a chance for Iraq to proceed with independence and self reliance.
I am aware that the tactic of civil war has been used many times to weaken a nation, and bring it under control, in want of a better phrase, but what I'm trying to say, is that Iraq cannot and will not be dominated by other powers, not even the US itself. The ongoing fighting, although gruesome, has already proved that people can and will revolt against things that they do not want.
And in this day and age, it is also not logical to accept that any country can go in and just claim dominance, especially in these times, where I have perhaps wrongly assumed that territory is no longer important.
Although the phrase of 'weapons of mass destruction' is now paired with the word 'iraqi oil'.
The worst thing? I would like to consider myself an educated Iraqi, but neither me or others even knew the split between sunni and shia was before this current war. But of course, when I use this argument, i always get the answer "of course you didn't know, you're still children".
The article linked does show some bias, but it also contains some facts, which cannot be denied.
Any deeply religious party cannot bode well for Iraq's future, irrespective of whether it is sunni, shia, or christian/jewish. What Iraq currently needs is a government that will see all as equal, and look after the people first, and politics after, but of course, this is damn near impossible, but nevertheless, part of me wishes to reccommend good old communism...but as I should mention, political ideaologies are almost never implemented properley.

Anonymous said...

touta, thanks for your thoughtful answer.

annie

touta said...

no problemo annie. Now I must go to sleep. Eyes are bleary from 'study'. :D

RhusLancia said...

Citizen Annie: "you mean like ultimately the holocaust was a good thing because it allowed the jews to have their own state."

gah. iow, strawman. ptb!

Praise Öbama.

onix said...

another superb piece of literature from the hands of abbas.
the conclusion you draw around the aunty put the point so securely, i myself don't need any detail about any existing sect to be quite happy with your statements. AFter that it's a bit harder to keep the attention at the same point.

technically. somewhere deep in islam unfortunately there is sth similar to the french revolution,
it's a very saudi 1600 old years revolution, it would eb interesting to see if it led to specific architectonic or death penalty traditions. Did islam have it's robespierre, and does anybody still consider that significant for the outcome, personally i don't belief either ali or his antagonists flagellated a lot.

perhaps their crowds did, they had been in contact with christians before, only in the times of Hus, long after ALi, christians advanced into respecting their civilians better then full automated slaves.

so there is always a turnside, as much as we are denied teh french revolution time after time, islam denies it's own revolution from the moment anybody thought muhmammed could still be objective about fatima.

must be we did slightly worse, but at least we were a lot later.

Bruno said...

[bruno] "Jeffrey's response is dictated by his Protestant sectarianism. He needs to look past the religious dogma and get a grip."

[jeffrey] "Can anyone here understand what Bruno is saying here? I've read these two sentences five times and still don't get it."

Sometimes I get the impression that Jeffrey truly is of low intelligence.

Let's start with a few premises and facts.

1: Abbas makes it clear he tends towards atheism.
2: Jeffrey attributes Abbas' outlook to sectarian reasons ANYWAY. (which incidentally confirms Abbas saying "I never remember an incident where you didn't try and work things to the interest of preconceptions")
3: Jeffrey is an atheist.
4: I know Jeffrey is an atheist.
5: Therefore, me attributing a sectarian basis for Jeffrey's actions even though I know he's an atheist could only mean that ...

6: ... I'm giving Jeffrey a taste of his own medicine, which is patently obvious given the circumstances and which flies completely over our 'Merkin's head, even after he pondered it five times.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Was it REALLY that difficult? C'm on.

onix said...

oh yes, i think you don't know what i considered modern and moderate islam in irak before 2002.

Now i just think it's uhm animal abuse, these poor iraqis know no better then to fight another over artificially enlarged divisions that despite their insignificance , well it's like bad tv,
my life long i wondered how on earth people stood TV (or any media, .. music) bad as it came.

recently someone answered that.
the answer is not nice. It is because the average person is dumb.

it's a measure of dumnness, tv is and so is religion, the Usian people have their fundamentalist traits.. and we also really fear that they are dumb, these 2 things go well together.

How can you be happy looking at bells lights dumb speeches and idiots misbehaving to collect money on tv? Becus if that was enuf to collect money like that anyone could do it.

recognition.. maybe iraki's actually should understand they have to recognise things outside islam.

yeah good point, you can't have them vote...;)

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Touta,

I'm sorry. When I mentioned that movie I didn't realize you were 17. From your comments you seemed older. I don't think your parents would be happy with me. Anyway, maybe give it a couple of years on that flick. Okay? :)

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Marcus,

lol! Thanks. I kind of like the Isle of Wight or the Leibniz Institute for Baltic Sea Research. Either one would be a good place to send Annie. ;) But I suppose she means the internet slang one. :)

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Annie,

lyn, it was a blog post about the presidential election,

You bring up more domestic issues on every forum than anyone else I know. Please spare me your slippery re-writing of history.

the crap about america being 'right centurist'.

I think you will find any number of people who believe that. However, after this last election I am sure they would probably consider us center-left. Doesn't matter to me. I just want a government that works for everyone. One that doesn't steer too close to the fringe elements of either side. It is my dearest hope that Obama would not listen to someone like you, for instance. And after listening to the interview that 60 minutes did with him and Michelle I am hopeful that he will steer a moderate course. He is an intelligent man.

liar. i answered in less than 24 hrs, days ago.

I do not lie, Annie. That would be you. I checked after I left my post a couple of times and there was no response. I am not online all the time on the weekends(Friday - Sunday). And this weekend I was not on on Saturday at all. So if Bassam had put your post up in that time period I didn't see it. And I don't think I checked again on Sunday. You really need to chill out a little, Annie. Since when have I ever avoided arguing with you? Granted, when your comments start to wander and become incoherent, boredom does start to set in and I start to skim. But I do try to hit the high points.

Okay, so I swung by BT's quickly last night and saw the huge comment you threw up over there. I will attempt to get back over there today to answer...

touta said...

lynnette
haha, older, why thank you? I don't think Baghdad is ready yet to have *those* types of film anyway.

Muhannad said...

I am very impressed by how well Abbas and touta write, considering they are Iraqi. Where did you two learn English?

Anand said...

Touta, you also stuck me as quite mature, thoughtful and sophisticated.

Maybe Iraq should dump Maliki and company, and elect you as PM. If Iraq does, consider hiring Sandybelle and Sunshine into your administration.

Give Abbas the musical education ministry.

:-)

touta said...

muhannad,
thank you, but you would be suprised at how bad I speak the language. I'm not sure where abbas learnt english, but I learnt due to travelling around a lot, as well as school.
:D
anand,
Thoughtful. The thought process in my mind is I think something..then I say it. hehe. I am personally gunning for Minister of Health, but Prime minister would also be perfect...
I think Abbas would make an excellent Minister of Music.
I think a meeting in this imaginary parliament would go along the lines of;
touta: "so issues of iraq hmm? power to the people!"
sunshine& sandybelle: *say something thoughtful, kind..*
suddenly we hear smoke on water guitar solo..
enter abbas and co. with spiked hear, smoking portable nargeelas..
iraqi guys:" bah to religion. Anarchy!!"
iraqi girls:" we weren't talking about religion..?"
iraqi guys: *start arguing amongst themselves for no apparent reasons*
iraqi girls: *all start wearing curtains out of depression, eventually realise that they have been nudged out of parliament, and into the kitchen of parliament*...
:D
there goes my 'sophisticated' personality...

Anand said...

Touta, a refined sense of humor is indicative of 'sophisticated' personality. I forgot to mention, you should also add Gilgamesh, Iraqi Exile, to your cabinet. He would be an awesome Iraqi minister of history/antiquity/culture. He is very interested in Iraq's ancient history. If you don't mind, I would like to work with Gilgamesh in that ministry even though I am not Iraqi. So much of human civilization derives from Sumeria, Accadia and Babylon.

Iraq needs to connect with its ancient roots more. Iraq was ancient, advanced, sophisticated, and cultured beyond reckoning long before Abraham was born.

touta said...

I know, tales of Iraqi history are so rich and full of moral advice, its a shame that they get lost through the years, in fact, I may start posting some of the stories told by my grandparents, just to preserve the history. I'm afraid with looting, both by Iraqis and foreigners, iraq is practically devoid of artefacts.
Doesn't matter you're not iraqi- just buy yourself a iraqi citizenship. These days they're in high demand. :D
So, we have minister of health, ministers of culture, minister of music, but who will be the prime minister/president. It would be better this time if they didn't have dictator tendencies...

Anand said...

Touta, in Persian culture, woman are very important (at least they were before Khomeini.) They are not relegated to the kitchen. Nor in South Asian culture. One of the first muslim emperors of India/Pakistan/Afghanistan (then one country) was a woman. Talk about tough, she was tough. She could smash Zarkawi, Abu Deraa, Khamenei, the Saddamists, and Assad with one hand while resting. Because muslim rule had just started in India, she was really Central Asian. Her father was a slave. She still made emperor. She lost a major military battle . . . no problem. She married the general who defeated her and remained Empress. {Touta, in case you are wondering, her husband obeyed her . . . not the other way around.}

Muslim woman have been very powerful for over a thousand years, especially in Persia and South Asia. I am amazed that you have so little confidence in the ability of woman to run Iraq. Now I guess if Hakim had a daughter who wanted to take over the business . . . then a woman really would be running Iraq today. :lol:

Seriously, there have to be woman leaders in Iraq other than you, Sandybelle and Sunshine.

Anand said...

"Doesn't matter you're not iraqi- just buy yourself a iraqi citizenship. These days they're in high demand. :D"

So I hear :lol:

But I am not Persian, or Sunni Arab. Can I still buy Iraqi citizenship?

Touta, there is a department at the University of California, Berkeley, that specializes in Sumerian language, culture and history. Iraq still has millions of tablets with old writings (that date from 3,000 to 4,000 BC.) You would be amazed. Iraq was so advanced and cultured. I think it will be again.

You want to run the health ministry . . . interesting. Muqtada had the ministry from 2005 until a few months ago (when Maliki finally appointed another minister.) I am sure you will do a better job than Muqtada.

I am thinking Sunshine for President, and Sandybelle for PM. Minister of defense would be Hayder al-Khoei. Foreign ministry could be managed by the Fadhil brothers (from ITM.) Zeyad from Healing Iraq could help the ITM brothers manage Iran. The three of them are good friends.

The Education minister might be Alusi.

Riverbend and Layla Anwar could be put in charge of Abu Deraa's prison (which would be filled with Iranian backed special groups prisoners . . . including Abu Deraa and Khamenei.)

Touta, sure you want the health ministry rather than National Security Advisor (Rubai is the current NSA)?

touta said...

haha lol. I suppose I'm speaking in a very biased way towards iraqi men, but the problem is, some er 'unsavoury' things happen to me especially on the streets of baghdad unless I'm accompanied by father/grandad etc, which has thrown me in a recent fit of whining about how unfair it is etc etc. so humour me as they say. And most iraqi women can "smash Zarkawi, Abu Deraa, Khamenei, the Saddamists, and Assad with one hand while resting". In fact, I may try it soon enough... :D

touta said...

hahaha at above post.
I'm still undecided whether I want minister of health, or NSA. Alusi for education? Why not! And as for your citizenship, as long as you have money...and preferrably a few iraqi swearwords would help.
Unfortunatley I don't know half of the bloggers mentioned, but I will read if the elctricity doesnt start switching off..
I would show Muqtada who's boss of healthcare any day. :D
I am glad that there are artefacts of Iraq outside, at least they're slightly safer, and won't be blown to dust.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Annie,

Okay, I just answered you over at Bassams. Actually, that was an interesting comment you made. Anyway, my response will show up whenever Bassam gets around to putting it up.

Anand said...

"most iraqi women can "smash Zarkawi, Abu Deraa, Khamenei, the Saddamists, and Assad with one hand while resting". In fact, I may try it soon enough... :D "

I don't doubt it. Please do the world a favor and take them out for us Touta. I have no doubt you can do what Bush tried to do and failed. {On second thought, could we hire you to replace Bush instead?}

Arab muslim woman can be very strong. I think that if they had hired Iraqi woman into the Iraqi army in 2003 and kept the men in the kitchen, the Iraqi Army would have kicked Takfiri, Saddamist, Abu Deraa butt much more quickly.

Remember how Aisha lead her army on camel back. She was one no nonsense warrior!!! Notice how Mohammed would have been nothing without Khadija. Also notice how Mohammed put Fatimah above everyone else despite her young age. He allowed her to speak to large assemblies of men. He said that she was a part of him {and therefore implicitly her words were more important and wise than those of any man except for the prophet himself.}

No man messed with Fatimah, Khadija or Aisha and got away with it!

"as for your citizenship, as long as you have money...and preferrably a few iraqi swearwords would help."
"I would show Muqtada who's boss of healthcare any day. :D"

Ha Ha!! My Abbas, she can teach even you a lesson or two on humor. ;-)

"I am glad that there are artefacts of Iraq outside, at least they're slightly safer, and won't be blown to dust." In fact millions of written tablets (that haven't been read, transcribed, or had their picture taken) are still inside Iraq. This is why it is very important that the GoI (gov of Iraq) quickly organize and protect all ancient relics. As you know, I recommend Gilgamesh, Iraqi Exile, for the job.

Touta, you should visit some other Iraqi blogs. You would suggest:

Abbas's blog of course
IraqiPlume.blogspot.com
EyeRaki.blogspot.com
IraqiMojo.blogspot.com

touta said...

"I don't doubt it. Please do the world a favor and take them out for us Touta. I have no doubt you can do what Bush tried to do and failed. {On second thought, could we hire you to replace Bush instead?}", ah unfortunatley obama beat me to that post, but nevertheless..*rolls sleeves up*. :D
What you said above is all true, and leaves me much hope for future improvement, and thanks for the blog list. I will read them, and hopefully see their view of the social issues in Iraq.
:D

An Italian. said...

@ Abbas.

Could you please deliver this nauseating Snakeworm 'anand', this abomination of a naturalised Ahmehwican of Hindou extraction, to his (imaginary) pals of the Badr Brigades, so that they skin alive the revolting thing (yes, a snakeskin belt for al-Hakim !) ???

[Snakeworm 'anand'] "Foreign ministry could be managed by the Fadhil brothers (from ITM.) Zeyad from Healing Iraq could help the ITM brothers manage Iran. The three of them are good friends".

First, no one can see why Iraq should accept as ministers two traitors to Iraq and criminals, the two disgusting French-kissers of the Ape-in-Chief Bush, who are now in the process of acquiring an Ahmehwican citizenship, anyway.

Second, this comical and compulsive LIAR 'anand' should show us some evidence for his ludicrous "The three of them are good friends".
He's unable to ?
Oh, what a SURPRISE !!!

So, this filthy, dishonourable propaganda agent of Ahmehwican warmongers is now trying to fool an Iraqi 17-year-old girl ???
I hope the girl (Touta) is able to see through this repulsive deformity 'anand' !

An Italian. said...

@ Touta.

To better understand this scumbag 'anand', and the pro-US, pro-invasion and pro-occupation bloggers he criminally propagandises:

EyeRaki (the son of al-Khoei) is a BRITISH CITIZEN;
"Iraqi" (LOL !) Mojo (Muhannad Zainy) is an AMERICAN CITIZEN;
the two opportunistic traitors Mohammed and Omar Fadhil hailed the kidnapping, torture and murder of innocent Iraqi civilians (May 2006) on the part of the Badr Brigades; they French-kissed the Criminal-in-Chief, George W. Bush, in a well publicised visit, and run the comical blog 'Iraq The Minion'; they won't ever be able to go back to Iraq even for a visit, of course ...

An Italian. said...

@ Touta.

To better understand this scumbag 'anand', and the pro-US, pro-invasion and pro-occupation bloggers he criminally propagandises:

EyeRaki (the son of al-Khoei) is a BRITISH CITIZEN;
"Iraqi" (LOL !) Mojo (Muhannad Zainy) is an AMERICAN CITIZEN;
the two opportunistic traitors Mohammed and Omar Fadhil hailed the kidnapping, torture and murder of innocent Iraqi civilians (May 2006) on the part of the Badr Brigades; they French-kissed the Criminal-in-Chief, George W. Bush, in a well publicised visit, and run the comical blog 'Iraq The Minion'; they won't ever be able to go back to Iraq even for a visit, of course ...

Anand said...

Ask Zeyad if he is friends with the Fadhil brother Italian. Note that I have read Zeyad's Healing Iraq and ITM from their first posts on. Have you? They talk about their relationship in their first few posts. They don't agree on everything, but I think it is fair to say that they agree on Khamenei. Italian do "YOU" agree with them?

EyeRaki's grandfather was the biggest Marja in the Shia world. His father was one of the biggest Marjas in the Shia world. His father helped lead the 1991 revolt against Saddam, and as a result was forced to live in exile.

Italian, you have no idea about the extent of reverence with which the al Khoei family is regarded among India's 30 million Shia, Pakistan's 30 million Shia, Afghanistan's 6 million Shia, Iran's 80 million Shia, and in many other parts of the world. Their family hails from Central Asia, or Azerbaijan.

I have met Iraqi Mojo in person several times. He has many relatives and friends inside Iraq, with whom he keeps in touch. You know little about him Italian. Please, Italian, stay away from topics you know nothing about.

Because I sympathized with the anti Saddam Iraqi resistance (but didn't support the 2003 invasion) I am suddenly an apologist for Hakim? Seriously? Italian, did I support Saddam too?

Italian, you seem to care about Dr. Mohammed and Abbas, so I'll let you off "AGAIN" without impugning your motives.

Touta, for the record, I use to admire ISCI/SCIRI/Badr, the Iraqi Communist Party, Al Dawa, Sadrists, Kurds, and many other Iraqi resistance groups for trying to liberate the Iraqi people from Saddam. But I am dissapointed by the performance of ISCI/Badr since they were voted into office on 1.30.05.

Jeffrey said...

An Italian,

What are you doing here? You KNOW that you should be back in your SPIDERHOLE over at Zeyad's. You've been repeating the same "snake" and "critter" sentences for FOUR YEARS now! I mean, c'mon, you add nothing to the conversations and you are tedious and uninteresting. Hey, BACK IN YOUR HOLE.

*

An Italian. said...

@ Jeffrey Schuster, 6:52 AM.

Dear Squeaker-in-Chief of Rats' Sewers Central, YOU should keep to your rathole, you clown !

BTW, you and Mr. Ghost published some interviews, if I'm not mistaken, with 'bg', 'Valerie' and 'Brian H' (three warmongering monkeys, regular commentators at 'Iraq The Minion'): now those same three vermin have been asking either for a putsch or an assassination against your President-elect ... nice 'democwats', indeed !
And you and your pals at the (fake) 'IBC' are truly comical, indecent rodents.

An Italian. said...

@ 'anand', 2:02 AM.

[Poisonous Snakeworm] "stay away from topics you know nothing about".

Oh revolting deformity oozing poisonous ichor, YOU should "stay away from topics you know nothing about", first of all. Any reader who had the misfortune of reading your truly nauseating posts knows that you make LIES up in a compulsive (and grotesque) way, for no reason at all (even a lie, to have some propaganda value, has to stay credible for more than one day ... but yours are just incredible !).

So, stop blathering about Iraqi bloggers you know little about (the beginning of Zeyad's blog was on the 17th of October 2003: plenty of things have changed since, oh idiotic and mendacious, fantasising VERMIN 'anand' !!!).

An Italian. said...

@ Jeffrey.

BTW, dear Rat, what about Olympic medals ???

Some time ago, at the 'Last of Iraqis' blog, you blathered about the comparative prowness of American athletes against Italian ones ...
I did leave you to it, because you are just a bag full of wind and what you say is NOT true very often, and because I'm not an 'Eeedalian patwiot' or whatever.

But at the Olympics I did pay attention, and the Italian team got ONE THIRD of medals MORE than the American team.
Now, dear Rodent-in-Chief, are you an IMBECILE LIAR, or not ???

Heh heh heh.

Anand said...

Italian, when have I lied? Please notice that I am being much more polite and courteous with you than you are being with me.

touta said...

If an iraqi hasn't lived all their life in Iraq, would that make them any less Iraqi? As long as they love Iraq, and want what's best, and are willing to work to improve the situation, then they have to be classed as Iraqis.
And concerning those that were voted in..I thought it was al-dawa, no way could it have been badr?
Oh, and i remember in Diyala/Baquba, when boys used to fight, the mothers would throw ice cold water at the whole group...
:D

An Italian. said...

@ Snakeworm 'anand', 4:21 PM.

[Comical Liar] "Italian, when have I lied?".

First of all, oh unspeakably vile Ahmehwican vermin, the last of your continuous LIES, AFAIK, is what you have written above, "The three of them [Zeyad and the two vermin traitors] are good friends".

Second, you wrote "Ask Zeyad if he is friends with the Fadhil brother[s] Italian". Now, it should be YOU asking that to Zeyad, oh clownish halfwit, since it was YOU who wrote the previous not necessarily truthful statement.

Third, the only time Zeyad addressed you in his blog he wrote that you should take your head out of your ass, instead of writing "ludicrous drivel" in his comments pages.
You never answered to him.
Of course, if you had been a being of any honour, decency or dignity you would have disappeared for good; but, being instead a disgusting snakeworm shitting his venomous slime all over the place, truly the most nauseating poster of the whole Iraqi blogosphere, after some days you shamelessly reappeared (as I had predicted).

Fourth, a couple of recent grotesque inventions of yours come to mind: when in August you denied that the Americans had killed over 90 Afghani civilians in a single cowardly bombing from the air, blaming the Taliban or the Italian general in charge of that sector of Afghanistan (!!!); and when some days ago you ludicrously claimed that a bombing of a market in Assam, India, which caused the death of some 70 people, was the work of (imaginary) "Takfiris", while it was instead the product of local (Assamese) feuds.

Now, I answered you.
If you had ANY honour, dignity or decency you'd disappear, never to be seen again.
But we know that you are the most vomitous scumbag and deformity in the whole Iraqi blogosphere, instead, so you'll keep puking your repulsive LIES all over the place :(.

An Italian. said...

@ Touta, 10:52 PM.

Dear young girl, if one has applied to get the citizenship of another country instead, he's a FOREIGN NATIONAL, not an Iraqi anymore, that's obvious enough.
As for profiteering scumbags coming back to Iraq on the back of American tanks, I would have imagined that by observing the current tragedy of Iraq you'd had enough of such criminal 'well-wishers' ...
As for Badr, you did NOT understand what I wrote: I was referring to a particular, especially criminal post by the two Fadhil traitors.
As for this compulsive liar and vermin, this American warmonger 'anand', you should read his revolting posts all around the Iraqi blogosphere before presuming you know a single thing about him.

touta said...

point taken, I'll read more.

Bruno said...

Anand IS a particularly treacherous sort. He comes on all friendly, and attempts the most warped leaps of logic to convince his mark to shift their opinions to what he wants.

touta said...

my opinion is staying firmly put, i am facing the actual reality of living here.
And apparently there has been physical fighting in the iraqi parliament, the news has been spreading through not only the schools but everywhere else..just a rumour though.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Touta,

And apparently there has been physical fighting in the iraqi parliament,

Like they do in Japan? Every once in awhile they make the news with that too.

I would guess the Iraqi parliament is, er, discussing the SOFA. I can see where there could be some fur flying. lol!

Better to use fists than guns, though.

my opinion is staying firmly put, i am facing the actual reality of living here.

Which is why we read you. You give us your thoughts on what is happening in a world that you are experiencing.

JG said...

Dear Italian and Bruno

Let's not forget Anand's particular regard for Hitler's "efficiency"!

Bruno said...

I must have missed that one, JG.

But what I do remember is Anand's undying LOVE for the friggin MONGOLS, of all people. Hey, they only reduced Baghdad to ash and build pyramids of skulls from the inhabitants.

Anand's heroes. Go figure.

Anand said...

Touta, I made a serious mistake some time back by calling Italian and "John" from Zeyad's blog "Saddamists."

Italian, while John is a Saddamist, you are not. I am very sorry. I messed up. You seem to care about Iraqis in your comments on Dr. Mohammed's and Abbas' blogs. Can we please put all this acrimony behind us? We both love Iraq and Iraqis. Isn't that enough?

Touta, I will apologize to Italian, but Bruno is another matter. Bruno has on many occasions supported violent attacks against Iraq's elected government and the Iraqi Army. He openly supported the rogue Iranian backed special groups militias in their attacks against the Iraqi Army during March to May of this year.

Italian, respectfully you are incorrect about the Iraq the Model Fadhil brothers. They are not pro Badr/ISCI. In fact, they have been very critical of Badr on many occasions. You should meet them Italian. You might like them.

Italian, you are also mistaken about EyeRaki. He loves Iraq. Ask Abbas if what I am saying is true. EyeRaki is respected by many Iraqi bloggers.

Italian, I shouldn't have said that Zeyad's extended family was persecuted by the Baath. That was for him to discuss and talk about. I understand that, and why Zeyad was upset that I said that.

Regarding the friendship between Zeyad and the Fadhil brothers . . . I guess I shouldn't mention that. That is for the three of them to mention if they choose to discuss it.

"claimed that a bombing of a market in Assam, India, which caused the death of some 70 people, was the work of (imaginary) "Takfiris", while it was instead the product of local (Assamese) feuds." At least 89 people where killed in that blast and more than 470 wounded. Early reporting that LET (AQ group whose emir is Osama Bin Laden) played a role has yet to be confirmed. I'll leave it at that.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/PoliticsNation/Centre_moots_changes_in_citizenship_rules_for_Assam/articleshow/3734319.cms

HUJI is a LET/AQ affiliate. However, Italian, tens of thousands of Indian civilians “HAVE” been mass murdered by AQ linked nut jobs. AQ is a major threat to everyone in the world, muslim and nonmuslim alike.

Herat, Afghanistan:
http://www.centcom.mil/en/press-releases/coalition-aug.-22-actions-in-afghanistan-justified.html

Italian, have you read the investigation of what happened on 8.22.08? A very short summary is:
According to the Afghan Defense Ministry, on 8.22.08 the Afghan National Army (ANA) took fire from a location during a pre dawn operation. The ANA (presumably the ANA, or could it have been the ANP or someone else) had previously received a tip about the site having Taliban, which seemed to be confirmed when they received fire from it. The ANA and the combat advisors accompanying it requested air support, which was provided by the US air force. The Afghan Defense Ministry initially reported that 25 militants were killed along with five civilians.

When this initial report proved inaccurate, President Karzai dismissed Maj. Gen. Jalandar Shah Behnam, commander of the 207th Corps (which commands all ANA in Western Afghanistan), and Maj. Abdul Jabar, commander of an Afghan Special Forces battalion, for negligence and covering up details of the attack.

It appears that many Taliban, including at least one senior commander, were killed in the attack. So were many civilians (although we still don’t know how many.) There was a serious intelligence failure. The 207th special forces commando battalion and the advisors accompanying it did not realize that there were civilians at the location the Taliban was firing at them from. Had they known that, they wouldn’t have called in air strikes.

The role of NATO Regional Command West Forces (commanded by Italy) is unclear. This might have been an ANA special forces commando operation conducted at the ANA’s discretion.

Let me ask you Italian, what would you have done if you were Major Abdul Jabar, and your special forces commando battalion was being fired at from a specific location, and if you had received a tip that Taliban were at the location you were being fired at from? Remember it was during the pre dawn hours. I don’t know the correct answer to this question. So perhaps both of us should await the arrival of a more detailed report about what actually happened that night.

My fear, Italian, is that NATO will now withhold tactical air support from the ANA and ANP when they are attacked, resulting in greater ANA, ANP, and other Afghan casualties. The Taliban and AQ are also likely to step up their attacks on the ANSF (Afghan National Security Forces) if they believe NATO will provide them less tactical air support. To some degree NATO has already restricted tactical air support to the ANSF since August 22nd. Whatever the case may be, I hope we can both agree that the ANSF need additional training on fighting jointly with tactical air support to reduce civilian casualties.

Italian, do you think NATO should deny tactical air support to the ANSF when they are attacked?

If you would like to discuss Afghanistan further, we can continue this discussion.

Touta, sorry if you feel sandwiched in a fight between others ;-) I think it is fair to say that whatever our differences with each other, we all very much impressed by you. Cheers!

An Italian. said...

@ Abbas.

Dear Abbas, read this latest utter delirium (a comical, utterly mendacious and fantasiously invented, crazy rant !) by the notorious Nazi and satanist American warmongering Snakeworm 'anand', the most vomitous vermin in the Iraqi blogosphere, and do the right thing:
kick the insane and sick abomination out for good, please !!!

Bruno said...

I think - in fact, I strongly support - the USAF providing tactical support to the ANSF by dropping Anand on the Taliban as ordnance.

Preferably without a parachute.

Although dropping him with a parachute might be interesting - we could take bets on whether the Taliban manage to detach his head from his shoulders, or whether Anand manages to bore them all to death with his onslaught of inane logic and absurd acronyms first.

I felt my eyes glaze over about a quarter of the way into that post; fortunately, with a supreme effort of will, I managed to hit the scroll button and preserve my sanity. Let's hope that nothing was permanently damaged.

JG said...

we could take bets on whether the Taliban manage to detach his head from his shoulders, or whether Anand manages to bore them all to death with his onslaught of inane logic and absurd acronyms first.

:lol: LOL

annie said...

JG! this is exactly the part i was going to copy paste, but of course bolding the manages to bore them all to death with his onslaught of inane logic

bruno, you are the best

be forwarned touta , ie He comes on all friendly, and attempts the most warped leaps of logic to convince his mark to shift their opinions to what he wants.

the truth!

rhusliesia gah. iow, strawman. ptb!

hellllo, that was the point. i was mocking you (if any "hosting" I am personally doing ends up weakening and toppling the Imperial Superpower, wouldn't you see this through your ideological blinders as a good thing)

you will never understand the how karma works rhus, so stop trying. everytime you try to trap me up nashing away on that old bone you won't give up, you make a fool out of yourself.

what your support for the empire has has helped nurture.

here chew on this


2025: the end of US dominance
• US intelligence: 'We can no longer call shots alone'
• European Union will be 'hobbled giant' by 2025
• Triumph of western democracy not certain

The United States' leading intelligence organisation has warned that the world is entering an increasingly unstable and unpredictable period in which the advance of western-style democracy is no longer assured, and some states are in danger of being "taken over and run by criminal networks".


doesn't that bring a little joy to your heart? read it to the bottom, compare :

The last time the NIC published its quadrennial glimpse into the future was December 2004. President Bush had just been re-elected and was preparing his triumphal second inauguration that was to mark the high-water mark for neoconservatism. That report matched the mood of the times.

It was called Mapping the Global Future, and looked forward as far as 2020 when it projected "continued US dominance, positing that most major powers have forsaken the idea of balancing the US".


take your bow boys and girls!!!! tomorrow is victory day!

i wonder if they are celebrating over at govtroll blogger central?

JG said...

Well said Annie.

annie said...

thank you JG. the implications of the NIC report are vast.

check this out
Rich countries launch great land grab to safeguard food supply


Rich governments and corporations are triggering alarm for the poor as they buy up the rights to millions of hectares of agricultural land in developing countries in an effort to secure their own long-term food supplies.

The head of the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation, Jacques Diouf, has warned that the controversial rise in land deals could create a form of "neo-colonialism", with poor states producing food for the rich at the expense of their own hungry people.


could? gee, ya think.

resources of the land between two rivers...priceless

Anand said...

Does anyone understand what Annie means?

Food is a one price market commodity. Everyone in the world pays the same price for food, adjusted for transportation costs. Who cares what person or company owns a farm? It makes little difference to the end buyer of food.

annie said...

try reading the whole link, if it still doesn't make any sense to you.. just play deaf and dumb.

An Italian. said...

Well said, Annie, for sure!!!

Trouble being, with this utter abomination, the naturalised American 'anand', that the deformity is so monstrous that you (or anybody else) cannot simply show the slimy ooze for what it is!!!

And this filth twistes whatever, or fakes he has not understood, or he poisonously slithers and coils about!!!

Fact is, one should graciously petition our host Abbas to remove this most vomitous vermin ...
... but, if our host does NOT, it is just possible that he (Abbas) gets some kicks out of showing AHMEWICAN SUBHUMANITY, lol!!!

RhusLancia said...

Citizen Annie: "everytime you try to trap me up nashing away on that old bone"

Every time I "talk" to you I recall the lie I caught you in, sure, and I'm reminded of your character. What kind of a person wants her countrymen killed and injured in a foreign country, for that country's new democracy to fail, and for its inhabitants to suffer for the karmic "payback" on the crime of removing the criminal government of a thief like Saddam? Citizen Bruno and Citizen An Italian wish exactly the same as you, but at least they are more honest.

Praise Öbama.

Anonymous said...

yawn. trying to resurrect your limp dick. good luck w/that. it didn't work the first time or the 50th, it won't work now. go hump away on your strawman allegations til kingdom come for all i care.
you're pathetic.

and for its inhabitants to suffer for the karmic "payback" on the crime of removing the criminal government of a thief like Saddam?

lol, is this like the game telephone where everytime you repeat your lie it grows arms extending out to further reaches of freeperlandia?

hump hump hump..your going to wear the skin off the damn thing if you don't watch out.

lol

Anonymous said...

an italian

that the deformity is so monstrous that you (or anybody else) cannot simply show the slimy ooze for what it is!!!

we can give it our best shot!

it is just possible that he (Abbas) gets some kicks out of showing AHMEWICAN SUBHUMANITY, lol!!!

how could anyone not get a glimpse of satisfaction witnessing the simplicity with which the vermin are pulverized so graphically, with such ease as they flail about stabbing at any and all life rafts w/which to hang their sorry impotent worthless narratives of the empire days gone by lost long ago.

where's lyn to link to some 50's bandstand nostalgia crap to remind us all how powerful we were in our heyday? poor little russie, trying to revive his act (dick) w/the comrade speak..uuu. how scary. a preamble to the communist accusations..how very dire daaawling. anand is left w/the dignified job of wiping up the excess because as we know, he is always polite. then he takes his shit infested hankie, wipes his own brow, and feigns ignorance..

Does anyone understand what Annie means?

eyelashes fluttering, beads of sweat ...shall we dress him in one of those civil war era dresses from gone w/the wind?

RhusLancia said...

hump hump hump - Citizen Annie thinks she can hump a lie enough to turn it into the truth.

Knock yourself out, Citizen. Please.

Praise Öbama.

Anonymous said...

yawn, and what lie would that be rhus?

(drum roll as he savors at the opportunity of humping the great karma catch once again)

hump away rhus. were all ears (again)

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