Monday, February 20, 2006

Comment On Past Post

This was a normal unimportant comment but it got too long, i thought i'd put it here...

GRANDPA DAILY QUOTE :
'Dog son of a dog' -About Rumsfeld.


Gee folks...that's like the largest comment sections i ever got...

Anonymous...I wholeheartedly disagree with you, listen, your line of thinking can be followed, but I think it's somewhat incorrect because you assume that religion is treated similarly by all the folks involved, the key is not the comparison of reaction towards religious offence, but comparing reactions towards SENSITIVE topics. Difference between insults towards Mohammed and other religions is that Mohammed guys tend to take their religion much more seriously than Jesus and Moses guys, cuz that's just the way they are! Other things, such as the holocaust, face similar, if not proposterous, reactions from the Western world...I can only stare in wonder at the 3-year prison sentence given out to British historian Irving for simply DENYING the holocaust...very simple example of western double-standards, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

The evolution of violence in the demonstrations is very natural, unfortunate, true, but is a complete rational offspring of the political backdrop - I am against the violence itself, but I like the enthusiasm.
Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing, Dayez, and in a perfect world, I totally agree with you 100%, but there are subtle levels in the matter, for example :
This guy in our neighborhood, we don't like him a lot, matter of fact,one of his cousins had outright problems with one of us and nearly killed the sucker, so one day we're standing in front of his house in our regular corner when all of a sudden his hot mom comes out to water the garden, and voila, quite accidentally we see her things that should not be seen, now, considering that we kinda hate the dude, and considering that his mom is so fucking hot, so we spread the word around, calling his mom an intentional whore-under-the-blanket...
Now if the dude would react like u want, he would either ignore us, or try to talk reason with us, yes my mom wears short skirts, yes, folks, please, don't make a big thing, it's her thing, everybody has a thing, sil vous plait, oui, fuck me in the ass? yes?!?? Dude, i can't even complete that line of thought!

All this happens while we still draw naked pictures of her on the walls, and talk about how she begs for it everyday by exposing exclusive parts from the balcony...Put yourself in the dude's place, how many days would say would the guy wait before he dishes out the AK-47 for target practice? See what I mean...
some things are sensitive, very very sensitive, if these things are not sensitive to you, you should consider their sensitivity to other folks - Religion is not much of a topic in the West, except in the catholic circles, and maybe because of the ultra-violent things done in the name of the church, or maybe because of the Da Vinci Code...but It is serious here, DEAD serious.

CHALLENGE OF THE DAY (IRAQIS only):

In Da Vinci Code, Jacques Saunere writes out a complex code to his granddaughter before he dies, the code involves the reverred Fibonacci sequenece (pronounced Phi-bo-na-chi), to understand what this sequence really is about, close the door, make sure no one is around, and read the following word out loud :

Fibonaccni


L8erz
Ever Wisecracking Kiddo

54 comments:

Melantrys said...

*throttles the Kid*

Stop comparing religious believes with a thousandfold murder!
It's one thing to say Mohammed/Jesus/Whoever is a fag/terrorist/whatever, sensitive as believes may be, but a totally different matter to deny crimes and murder and glorify a dictator.
He should have been sentenced to more years. People like him are the breeding ground for more Nazis. Kid, people like him are also the breeding ground for Anti-Islamists; or do you seriously believe those kind of people are still solely focused on the Jews??

As for Mr Anonymous, I think it is futile to try and argue with him because it is obvious that he either didn't really read your post or my comments, failed to understand 'em, or just enjoys picking out random words that he feels he can rant against.

Frenzie said...

Denying the Holocaust is the first step to repetition and new concentration-, no, extermination-camps. Calling Mohammed or even Muslims as a whole a bunch of terrorists is just stupid and not comparable at all. As they say, "he who forgets history, is bound to repeat it." Saying that Hitler did his share of good by for example creating jobs is perfectly fine. Saying that Hitler did nothing wrong is not.

There are no double standards because one was prosecuted and punished in court. Not a fake Soviet-style court, a normal court.

If in Germany and Austria denying the Holocaust is illegal then suddenly the entire western world has double standards? It is not illegal in The Netherlands and Denmark for example as far as I know.

In the 60's, in the Netherlands a lot of religious issues (and for example frontally naked people on television) were sensitive issues. Some people who were opposed to the way it was treated kept showing them to provoke and such and nowadays we don't consider them sensitive anymore.

We know from experience in mainly the 60's that by bashing "holy houses" (i.e. things considered "sensitive)" we can make them unsensitive.

And as far as depicting Mohammed is concerned, as also displayed on http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/, would that mean you are only allowed to make positive pictures? That would be quite ridiculous, really.

Also there are people who say Mohammed would have loved to see women in strings and bikinis. Are they blasphemous and whatever else you could call them simply because they differ a bit in opinion?

The entire point of talking about sensitive things is to make them less sensitive and more discussable with reason. Avoid sensitive issues and you can never ever have a discussion. Of course that's what the Catholic church was doing in Medieval Europe. 13th century Islamic philosophic works are very interesting and seem to be far more "blasphemous" than most of the things uttered in the west right now. So the question is: what happened? By that I don't mean something like "when did the west become the leading power and the east the weaker one", which would be around Vienna in 1560 or so, but "why did the Islamic world apperently go backwards rather than remain at the same point or only advance slowly."

But most importantly, just as Jordania is not representative for "the Islamic world", neither is Austria representative for "the Western world." That a lot of people here seem to consider that and apperently "over there" a lot of people seem to consider the US with the negative flavours of Europe they dislike most is just a sad thing.

The dude formerly known as dayez said...

Sentencing someone to three years of prison just because of something he said (no matter what it is) is the most fucked up thing I ever heard. Double standards indeed.

If that law is ever introduced to Arabia, we would all be serving life sentences in jail.

Frenzie said...

I just realised "There are no double standards because one was prosecuted and punished in court. Not a fake Soviet-style court, a normal court." is not what I meant to say. What I meant to say is that things can be debated and changed on matters of reason. Not on matters of someone's explanation of a book. Even if the book is perfect, then the person's explanation still is not.

Frenzie said...

@dayez, as I understand it in Egypt people are generally free to speak their mind but don't dare to because the extremists take rights into their own hands and in many other countries you are actually put into prison for saying things, or for just uttering that the Koran might not be all the work of Mohammed himself.

But I think most people in the west would agree with me that freedom of expression has a limit. Where the limit is you can argue about and I think it should be so low that it would be almost no limit and I certainly think arresting someone for denying gaschambers is wrong in its way.

An Iman in Amsterdam basically said similar things. Has he been arrested? No. Western world double standards? As I said, is Iran representative? No. Is Iraq? No. Together they are a part of the ***** worlds, but it's just a loose term.

So what does Arabia mean? In parts of Arabia it's certainly "introduced" to arrest people for what they say. If no arrests are being made anymore it's because everybody has shut up by now.

So yes, there are faults in the "Western World". There are faults in my own country (The Netherlands). There are faults in the "Islamic World". I think it's especially important to realise that Denmark, a bit like the Netherlands is a lot more free and liberal part of the Western World than Austria. So let's both admit we have our mistakes, but really, bringing the Holocause is at the very least strange, at least to me as a resident of the Netherlands. According to Melantrys the subject really lives in the "east" though...

cile said...

the netherlands are just fine and so progressive. but we have agitation too.
in austria some years ago a certain haider, a quite extreme right-wing figure was very very popular in the elections. M, a dutch comedian-journalist went there. he dressed up and moustached like hitler. he walked down the streets of vienna. he shaked peoples hands and had nice talks with them. he shouted 'sieg haider!' to the new austria. he gave away presents too: small black balloons filled with 'zyklon b'. in the small item he made about it on TV he could also be seen ordering coffee and cake in a 'konditorei' while hurrying the waiter, "schnell oder ich ergasse sie alle!"
it was an absurdistic piece of theatre that could have been made up by the monthy python family. like in a kind of 'peoples court', according to M, he was aggressively criticised by his colleagues, who demanded for the suspension of the program. this happened, and the contract was never renewed -by the most progressive public broadcaster-. many of the dutch progressive intellectuals showed themselves very angry as well, and at a certain point it was even mentioned that M had hunted jews. very few saw the humor of M's society-mirroring act. it however couldn't be denied that the ghost of hitler in that days was indeed drooling around in austria.
only a few could see the humor M's act.
M has been to the bible-belt of the US as well. there he fullfilled the role of a Dutch media-priest in a very lightblue shining suit and equally colored hair.

Frenzie said...

I never understood the fuss about that Heil Haider stuff, actually I thought it was quite funny. Personally I blamed the critisism on the politically correct social-democrats (who don't dare to even remotely offend anyone so to say).

But let's not forget, things have changed. We got Pim Fortuyn like two years later, who was then murdered by a sick environmentalist. Those kinds of topics are now far more openly discussable than 5 years ago. This M (why M? he's not a convict, but I can't remember his full name right now) was one of the people who paved the way for that.

But even so, they fired him because they thought it might be bad for their image as a cool sender. After all they're commercial and need their viewers. Many of those are perhaps somewhat more limited in their views. That is on a completely different scale than giving someone three years in jail.

I do however consider some things more restrictive than 5 years ago, because of "the war on terror". As Benjamin Franklin said: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." We haven't gotten to anything essential yet, but the only time Ausweises were in the Netherlands was under the Nazi-occupation. But since last year you have to carry one on you. They (politicians) say Germany and Belgium have it, so we're behind or something like that. I say fuck Germany and Belgium and let's show that we are better and don't need that kind of crap.

I think it's just a method to get extra money, for example I'm quite sure that if you go to a beach in summer around 17:00, position a few cops and ask everybody for their legitimation. I'd say most people will not have them on them, simply because they are at the beach.

If anything it made the situation easier for terrorists. Steal someone's wallet and you can be almost sure it's got a passport or something like that in it. Before you could be almost sure there wasn't so it wasn't worth the trouble.

Frenzie said...

Okay, today I read the right way to describe this all in yesterday's paper.

When you enter a mosque, you show your respect by taking off your shoes. If you enter a synagogue you show your respect by wearing such a stupid keppel (which kept falling off my hair). If you enter a church you show your respect by being quiet (and you also do that in all the others, but there you have to do extra things on top of that).

However, you ask me not to say something you consider a taboo in a public area (for example the street, or a café or a newspaper), then you don't ask my respect, then you ask for subjection. That is the exact opposite of a secular democracy. In Saudi-Arabia you can get arrested for wearing a cross or having a Bible. In Denmark (and all other western countries) Muslims can have mosques, graveyards, tv- and radiosenders and so on and so forth. They have, in other words, freedom of expression.

If anything, the cartoons show that Muslims are a part of the Danish society. You say "you are a part of our society and we have some critisisms on that".

As Ayaan Hirsi Ali said, with some luck these cartoons got the integration of Muslims in Europe 300 years ahead, so that we don't have to go through enlightment a second time.

And there's one question which has been on my mind for some time now I didn't ask so far. The cartoons must have been republished in Islamic countries, otherwise, how could they be mad about them?

Frenzie said...

If you wonder why I dropped such shitloads of text here, I just hadn't spoken my mind regarding this anywhere yet and this somehow seemed like the right place to do it. :P

Melantrys said...

Frenzie, dear, I can't speak for all papers in Muslim countries (I know at least one Egyptian one printed 'em), but for example neither the Turkish newspaper Hürriyett nor the Turkish tv attainable in Germany showed them, so my colleague asked me if I had seen them.

And people, if you were living in the country that committed those crimes, killed so many Jews and the people who stood up to them and mentally disabled people ("lebensunwertes Leben" they called it, life unworthy of life!), and you constantly encounter morons spewing garbage like "oh, we'd still be much better off economically if Hitler had won" out of pathetic brainlessness, then you too would call for people belittling the crimes of the past to be punished. Especially if they're academics and try to teach people that wrong history as fact. Unfortunately people are too often dumb enough to buy it.
Like Frenzie said, even if he doesn't totally agree with me, it is important to remember the mistakes of the past, so that we may all learn from them. We have to, or do we seriously wish to go on slaughtering each other?

Oh, and Kid, if you meet up with Dayez the next time, give him a mild kicking from me. ;) But not too hard, mind; you know I'm a nice person. :)

cile said...

compaesan frenzie: you'll find Muntz + pic on my bloggy :)

further, i took the example cuz' i wanted to say that we all shouldn't take ourselves, nor our believes or convictions too seriously; i think human stories teach this in serious ways, on the smaller, and the bigger matters.
one person with the guts to swim against the compact streams of the massess, who dares to use his or her own brains, who searches for the facts, stories and insights (Muntz did so by 'mirroring' Austrian society) that he or she thinks are more important than ruling common believes -in the place where he or she lives- well, that i admire. (yes dude f.d.)
it needs sometimes painful gymnastics of the own brains to create space, taking common views -of whatever kind- for granted usually means narrowing space.
and after all it is definitely more creative to have a good laugh. tickles the brains too.
good luck! (and don't stick around too long at the neighbor's, there's more to do in life :))

aliandra said...

About half a dozen countries in Europe have laws against denying the Holcaust. Most European countries do not. I disagree with such laws. Free speech means even idiots have the right to speak their minds. It's absolutely shocking that someone was imprisoned for saying something stupid.

aliandra said...

About half a dozen countries in Europe have laws against denying the Holcaust. Most European countries do not. I disagree with such laws. Free speech means even idiots have the right to speak their minds. It's absolutely shocking that someone was imprisoned for saying something stupid.

D said...

Such high quality commentary--wonderful.

Where is the line on freedom of speech, if it exists? Is it ok to threaten someone's life? In this case, if only the action is punishable, then of course the person threatened is dead.

Hate speech might be considered an extention of a threat to harm, and thus in some places possibly illegal. Holocaust denial in places such as Austria might be considered a form of hate speech, and not for lack of reason; in an Austrian and German context, it can be a euphemistic way of rallying closet fascists.

Is it proper that it's illegal? I don't know. I do know that there is a terror in educated circles that such denial will gain currency, and that the enormity of the crime and horror will vanish through clever marketing.

For the generation that made the law, it might be fair to say that under no circumstances would they be sitting again on the sidelines and letting fascists gain legitimacy.

Also, it might be worth saying that for those outside it might be hard to understand the enormity of the organized, systamic robbing and killing of so many millions.

cile said...

wonderful indeed :)

as for the inside and outside, i have to think of a movie i saw one or two years ago: The Pianist'. it is one of the few, or maybe even the only movie i know about an uprising in a ghetto, the one of Warsaw. the -jewish- guy that later in the movie becomes the main character, the pianist, at a certain point walks on the road along a footpath with a blond, not jewish woman. on the footpath waits an enormous line of jews, with suitcases and small possessions in their hands. taken out of their homes they're lined up and forced to move into the ghetto. the woman says to the man: "this is absurd. this is absurd!"

what we are saying to eachother in these days too is that "it is absurd" like with the cartoon-mess. but people are being killed, and emotions can so easily be manipulated into actions and reactions when streams of fears and angers are lose, and it is very, very difficult to affront quick and violent developments with heads cool and keep hoping -and working- for the better.
i wish you all the best

Anonymous said...

Hey Kid and Dayez,
Stop generalizing the entire west because of the action in one country. There are many people who publicly proclaim the holocaust never happend in America (Mel Gibson's dad for one) and they are free to speak their mind. If Muslim's have a problem in the country in which it was published, may be they should go about the right way and formulate a law that makes it illegal to draw charictures of your prophet.

Its really shameful that you even have a tiny bit of pride because of what is happening with the protests. Shameful and dispicable... it only lends credence to the fact that deep inside every muslim is a savage that burns embassies. Have you no shame? People died in these protests, buildings were burned. In the above example, did anything like that happend?

There is no power, their is no pride... what there is are barbarians who take lives over drawings?

There is a saying that goes: "Let the better man win" before a fight.

A confrontation between Islam and the rest of the world is indeed brewing... let the better idealogy win.

cile said...

change p/reposition: let the better dialogue win...

Anonymous said...

I agree with you: the jailing of that british historian by Austria (and the very *existance* of laws that jail people for expressing their views) was an absolute shame.

He is, of course, an old fool and a total crackpot, and his views are both absurd, bitter, and and poisonous.

However, I do not agree with you that this is any sort of justification for prosecuting people, or threatening them for other views.

cile said...

piece of a cartoon dialogue: http://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-0602/msg00058.html

Anonymous said...

I agree with you: the jailing of that british historian by Austria (and the very *existance* of laws that jail people for expressing their views) was an absolute shame.

DING DING DING! Thats what Dayez and the kid don't get. Every society has laws and if you break them you goto jail.

Muslims, as hard as it is for the Kid and Dayez to believe, are also bound by the laws of the societies which they choose to live in. If there was a law in Denmark that said that drawing charicatures of the Prophet Mohammed was illegal the cartoonist would be thrown in jail.

Is Islam compatible with democracy or are they backwards people who follow no laws but the words that come out from their local Imam?

From what Dayez and the Kid have been expressing as well as the world wide protests over silly drawings, it seems as if it is the latter case....

cile said...

@ ding ding ding anon:

yep. for example guantanamo proves an (not our) utterly 'forwards' western culture...

maybe try and read some less self-confirming texts? try shobak.org!

Scott from Oregon said...

Konfused. Dude! I read your profile. No wonder you are Konfused! You should be reading Vonnegut and listening to Led Zeppelin. That'll fix ya right up....

Konfused Kid said...

My dear Anonymous,
u misunderstand and disappoint me deeply, right now, although this conversation has been rendered irreleavent by the devastation that happened at Samarra, I feel it neccessary to reply to you on the following matters.

First, it seems to me that we are running in a closed circle here. I can understand your viewpoint about Islam and muslims, and you are just in a way, because the fault is largely muslims' own, I agree with you, but please open your mind and at least try to SEE what I really want to say. So far you have only taken whatever things I said that you could use to iterate your point, missing what I am saying.

My main concern here was that there are certain sensitive topics that one must tackle with care when trying to address, such as any Islamic principles for Muslims, or Holocaust for Germans ...I can only cite Melnatry's irrational objection to even discussing the holocaust, her belief is built on years of schooling and upbringing, if u disagree with it, you must be careful in order to reach any conclusive results from the other side u r dealing with. Blatant mockery could only lead to hostility, and in the end it becomes simply a matter of butting heads. This obviously concerns the cartoon incident as well as Ahmednijad's irresponsible declarations.

However, considering the generous helping of stupidity in the world, plus the fact that some people are mischieveious no matter what, things like this happen. The Muslim reaction is only natural, matter of fact, it could've been a lot worse...Muslims are not ready yet to accept such freedom of speech, Westerners must be careful when addressing such holy sanctities, not for the sake of respecting Islam, but for the sake of a general benefit. Understanding what Islam is about goes a long way toward bridging the unfortunate gap, you must make the extermists and terrorists lose their support, and mocking deities is no way going about it.


the pride thing, this thing which u have so wrongfully misunderstood is KEY, repeat, KEY to understanding everything that's going on in the Middle East, why has Bush's democracy-spreading policies begotten HAMAS's win, SCIRI, etc...I feel absolutely no shame in it, but I tell you that it was incorrect - my friend, I rever my nation, and I am at a loss to see it vanquished, torn and run to the mud like this...should you rob me of my enthusiasm when I see it strong? My point here is that Islamic pride must have a proper outlet, because rightnow only this extremist outlet is there for it.

I am trying to explain to u what does it mean to be a Muslim, to bring you closer to a Muslim's mentality, why does he support the acts of extremism. and u igrnoantly misunderstand it for racial prejudice on my part...I am saying : should u provide the Muslim everyman with another democratic channel to vent his national pride, it would have been a lot different.
I agree with you in the emotion's political incorrectness, but I have a heart of gold and I told u the truth. Don't be such a racist stonehead.

Frenzie said...

"Melnatry's irrational objection to even discussing the holocaust, her belief is built on years of schooling and upbringing, if u disagree with it, you must be careful in order to reach any conclusive results from the other side u r dealing with"

To me the Nazi-administration, pictures and videos of the time seem to combine to quite a good basis for a rational opinion.

The minister of education over here said we should try to make people prouder of our history somehow. Personally I see a lot to be proud of and of course things not to be so proud of. I can't see how you could become prouder of it without telling less about for example how slavery was still allowed until 1866 (if I remember correctly, might be a few years off :P)

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned suggesting that, even if you acknowledge that it took place, is a crime. She doesn't suggest that of course, I just fail to see how you can be prouder of the history without emphasizing the good stuff or not mentioning much of the bad stuff, either which would be bad.

Similarly, Germans have a damn lot to be proud of. Only some of the things they can be less proud of are far worse than slavery (which afer all mainly depended on the master). It's all more recently on top of that. Were I a German, I'd consider it a crime to suggest it didn't take place. Not being a German I consider it worthy of my very strongest disapproval, but not something to be punished by "me". That's the job of the Germans (and Austrians) and that's what they did.

Three years seems a bit much to me though, I'd more think like 2 weeks or so just to give the guy a good scare.

Anonymous said...

Honestly, I just got here by surfing blogs by surfing for information about Jill Carroll, because something about her pictures makes her look so sad and sweet that I can't imagine anyone who met her would harm a hair on her head.

Anyhow, I'm a Jewish person in the United States, and the Nazis killed a bunch of my great-great-aunts and great-great-uncles and their children and parents, and I really agree with you about David Irving.

I sort of think that Austria and Germany may need hate to have hate speech laws, just to show that they're really sorry about the Holocaust, but the idea of imprisoning some kook because he happens to hold stupid ideas is really scary. And, who knows, even someone who is evil and wrong about most things could be right about some things. I think people like Irving have a point, for example, when they wonder why the "6 million Jews died" number is so sacred. As if it would be any less horrible if 1.2 million died or 8.1 million died. The intentional killing of one innocent Jewish child in WWII, or one innocent Cambodia child in the Cambodian Killing Fields, or one innocent Iraqi child in the current Iraq war is a tragedy beyond understanding. When people start freaking out about what the number is (or freaking out because someone else is fiddling with the number), that just shows how foolish people are.

If Austria and Germany have to have a hate speech law on the books for symbolic reasons, I wish that the punishment would be that David Irving would do volunteer work for Amnesty International.

Anyhow, I am very sorry that the United States is going around Iraq acting like the evil empire in Star Wars. I have no idea how to stop it. All I know how to do is to post on blogs.

Melantrys said...

Irving also claimed that the Jews died of natural causes (sickness) in the concentration camps; that they were not gassed.

It's not about numbers as such, nor is it about symbolism, it's about people playing down what "we" did, thus opening the door to repetition of history.

Buuuut I explained the reasons all before.


I'm so tired. Tired of working for a man who suspects every Russian, black or Arabic looking person entering his store of being a thief.
Welcome to Germany, man.

Derryck_Mimbari said...

Hello Brother

It is a pleasure ure to have read some of your opinions/ravings about the situation in your village/town in Iraq.

I am a very ardent believer and supporter of all peoples who strive to ensure peace, stability, harmony, and comraderie among people, and communities internationally.

You seem to be that someone who is very socially sensitive, observant, concerned, and with the skills of a lyricist, is able to bring comedy to the human condition.

And I admire you for these qualities.

I hope that we could be friends, and communicate with each other often on many things.

Politics is one of them too.

Om Shanti.
Derryck.
New York City.
Yaho IM: derryck_sylvester
AOL IM: Ecmimbari
MSN IM: derryck1950

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