On the end of my last post, I wrote: "and I can't wait to see what happens next, Tomorrow is the first day of the rest of my life"
and what a day!
The storm gathered by yesterday's evening...and by the time it was certain...I was too tired and went to sleep, I went to sleep at 2 AM...thinking that sometimes during my sleep, the most famous Iraqi of the 20th century will be executed...
I woke up at 9, mumbled Happy-eids to parents, then headed straight to the TV...and I recieved the images...the first thing that struck me was how unbelievable this was...Saddam was a part of my everyday patterns as a human being, I woke up, ate, drank, shat, slept, and Saddam is the undefeatable tyrant that never dies. It was hard, hard, hard to know that Saddam is no more, he was arrested, humilitaed and sentenced to death and I didn't feel much - but to know that he is gone is very strange - He was a given fact of life! and now he's dead...This doesn't happen in the world that I normally inhibit...
I also must say that from all the people that ruled Iraq at any given time, I do not hate any of them as much as I hate Saddam Hussein - through his stubborn Great Leader complex he has made us suffer so much, and pretty much a lot of the blame for the distingeration of Iraq as a fabric can be laid squarely on his shoulders, but while I was seeing these images, I had to keep reminding myself how much I hated Saddam Hussein, because they were flat-out disgusting. The problem of our politicians is that they always have to ruin the good stuff with the bad stuff, Mowafaq al-Rubay'ie, the national security advisor, said that Saddam looked very weak and pathetic while he was taking his final steps, but in the images I watched he looked just as brave, magnificent and charismatic as ever, despite his great evils, I must say that Saddam Hussein is the bravest guy that ever ruled Iraq. The problem is that Saddam is an extremely charismatic figure, he can drive many people to inspiration and is simply the most bravest man of all his opponents, Muwafaq, al-Maliki, al-Jaafari and al-Hakim wouldn't stand for two seconds alone with this guy, they all ran weeping to Americans...It's just, unfair, that they should be sing-songing like this while not only are they as cruel as he, but they are nowhere as brave or influential as him.
While I think that Saddam deserves a thousand hangings, I completely disapprove of the way they have handled this - they chose a very bad timing for it, the holy Eid is a day of joy, of happiness, of forgiveness, people do not want to start their day by watching a man insulted a thousand times with a rope at his neck, true, I completely understand the fact that there are hundreds of families who are glad to see Saddam suffer and die like their sons and families did, but they are not all Iraqis, and they are not all people, and true, maybe Shiites would feel there might be a religious conrguence for this timing as it is harmonious with the vengeful nature of Shiite Islam, as hatred of tyranny and cruel avengance are major pillars in their sect, but with the confusion of Iraqis everywhere and growing tensions, such delicate matters should not be handled as bluntly as they were when all the other people watch these images accompanied by the whole lot of insults and curses, on such a holy peaceful occasion, the feeling they give you is one of complete injustice and being cruller than the man they are hanging.
The joy that could have been to see Saddam executed was lost in the bad conditions to which Iraq is heading, from a strategic point of view, Saddam's killing could go a long way in dispiriting Baathists, as Baath is largely a personality cult - it is without doubt a significant hit to morale, but it still remains unknown how far could this psychologically curb them.
As for our naive Arab brothers here and Jordan, they completely condemned and rejected the sentence, they lost a 'great Arab leader who was the only one with balls' - yeah, Saddam did stand up, but look at the price we paid for that little hypocrisy of his.
I am sure many Iraqis have been relieved at the execution, and they have every right to, but it's a shame that this sight has saddened many others by the stupid way it was handled.
I don't know of a precise word for my feelings - Little if at all joy, unbelieving numbness and extreme disappointment. I've always wanted Saddam to be killed, but the guy had a way of making you feel sorry for him.
UPDATES: Here is the complete Saddam execution video that was partly aired on al-Jazzeera network from Kitabat.com, it's shot using a mobile phone by one of the guards, and it shows how his neck was broken in the end, the guard who shot it stands at the western side of the room - two other version have resurfaced, the other is from the right side of the room and was broadcast at Al-Sharqiya TV (bad audio quality though), while the other displayed photos of Saddam after he was killed and was aired on Ibrahim al-Jaafari's Beladi TV.
also, a fellow Shiite blogger has described this execution in the perfect words, which are the words of Imam Ali himself during the Great Civil War:
"Kalimat Haqq Yuradu Biha Batil"
"A word of right that is used for an implicit wrong."
123 comments:
Psst Kid, you've got a double post. I wasn't sure where to leave this comment, so I picked the top one.
You have a good heart, Kid. Which is why you feel sorry for Saddam. You forget all of the bad things he did in the face of his imminent death. But his vicitms haven't. And if this brings them some solace then so be it. It was justice.
Comment regarding your Dec. 29 post:
I enjoyed the videos. I think my favorite one of the three I hadn't seen before was the Nahrain Computer one.
But let's cut to the chase here. Soooo you're in love...hmmm? Seriously? As in engagement kind of love? Hmmm.....?
Considering the things he has done, does he deserve death? Yeah I suppose so. But thinking about how I would feel ten minutes before getting my neck broken by a rope makes me feel a little bad for him. I can't imagine how that would truly feel, to know that in a few minutes you wouldn't "be" anymore and knowing there was nothing you could do about it.
I wonder what he was really thinking..."hey, at least I did a good job!" or "these assholes!" or "Damn, how did I end up like this?" or "my kids..."
Happy Eid to you, Kid, and happy new year :) Hope everything goes well for you on this coming year.
I, too, hated Saddam, and I, too, was dissappointed at his death. I know he deserves to die for all what he did to us, and I believe that what we're going through now is also becasue of him and what he did. But I don't understand the sudden rush in excuting him. It's Eid's day, why couldn't they just wait after that! I still can't believe it actually happened. I think that's the feeling of many Iraqi people..
I never knew being pulled out of a rathole amounted to bravery. Saddam is dead and the pre-liberation status quo will NEVER return, so get used to it. Might as well make yourself at home in Jordan.
It's kinda hard to admit, but Sunnis don't feel very comfortable with this event.
It's not that we all love him, and it's not that he's one of us; it's just that our disgust at the current regime far exceeds that of Saddam, and quite frankly, guys like Sadar and Maliki are giving Saddam every excuse he needs in front of people and in front of God to justify the way he ruled Iraq.
So, we all hated Saddam. I remember when I was a kid I hated him so much that I often imagined myself torturing him sadistically to satisfy my grudges against him. (ok, well, I was just a kid, and he didn't directly hurt me personally, but everyone hated him and spoke of his crimes).
But now, I feel that this whole issue is just a shitte propaganda.
I mean Cmon, cut the crap mister Rubaiey, you and your gang have absolutely no right to talk about justice and punishment.
What's more disgusting is seeing the Sadr city Mob go out to the street carrying pictures of Khumainy and Hakeem and Sadr!! Screw you pigs, who are you to talk about justice?
What a load of crap.
Kid,
Happy Eid and inshalla have a prosperious 2007.
I agree...although the long term sufferings because of him, Saddam made me feel so sorry for the way of his death...
Dear Kid
Happy Eid & Happy New Year
I have the same problem, I've never thought about writing such thing or writing about this subject.
However, I don't know how I feel, I'm not happy and of course not sad.
And I don't know why
Others also have got the same feeling!!!!
It's kinda hard to admit, but Sunnis don't feel very comfortable with this event.
Believe me, I know.
It's not that we all love him, and it's not that he's one of us; it's just that our disgust at the current regime far exceeds that of Saddam, and quite frankly, guys like Sadar and Maliki are giving Saddam every excuse he needs in front of people and in front of God to justify the way he ruled Iraq.
The foot of Maliki is worth the whole filthy bedouin tribe of Saddam. Did Maliki authorize his armed forces to go destroy all of Tikrit (as your hero 'baba Saddam' did to the holy city of Karbala i 1991)? No, he didn't (unfortunately).
The facts on the ground speak much louder than your bullshit imagination. This Shia and Kurdish dominated ELECTED government hasn't done 1% of the amount of crimes as your illiterate Sunni Arab filthy ibn kalb hero.
So, we all hated Saddam. I remember when I was a kid I hated him so much that I often imagined myself torturing him sadistically to satisfy my grudges against him. (ok, well, I was just a kid, and he didn't directly hurt me personally, but everyone hated him and spoke of his crimes).
Of course he didn't do anything against you personally. I'm sure your family never struggled against his tyranny for fear that the furs majoosi zionists would come to power if 'baba Saddam' left. Awlad kalb.
But now, I feel that this whole issue is just a shitte propaganda.
I mean Cmon, cut the crap mister Rubaiey, you and your gang have absolutely no right to talk about justice and punishment.
Get used to it, the new Iraq is going to be dominated by Shia and Kurds, and Saddam being sent to hell is 'victor's justice.' And believe me, if there wasn't all this bullshit pressure to pamper Saddam with a trial, the true Iraqi patriots would've torn your hero to shits as soon as he was done presiding over rats in his shithole of Tikrit.
What's more disgusting is seeing the Sadr city Mob go out to the street carrying pictures of Khumainy and Hakeem and Sadr!! Screw you pigs, who are you to talk about justice?
Again, your letting your emotion and sectarian bias get in the way of facts. The facts on the ground are clear: the filthy Sunni Arab community hasn't suffered 1% of the amount of oppression as have the Shia and Kurds.
Did you forget all the crimes your hero committed? Anfal, Halabja, Karbala, Najaf, the purges of the Dawa party, the 1991 cold blooded murders of Shia civilians, etc... the list goes on and on.
And now because a few of your rats have been allegedly "killed" by the but'aal in Faylaq Badr you want to claim that all of a sudden you rats are oppressed?! Wallah isna ou shifna. Yallah walu min hown ya awlad nathil. There's no place for you in the new Iraq.
Last Anon...
Hey, for some reason i think you were the same hard-line Shiite who visited us at some parts.
I think that your anger is justified at the Saddam's symapthy, but try to think about it for a second: Everything that happened to Saddam was made public, while all the things that happened to Shiites and Kurds did not. Perhaps this event has shown really how much did the rift go between Sunnis and Shiites - The problem is that neither you nor me are willing to compensate a bit of our emotions for the good of the overall picture - a united Iraq. Both Sunnis and Shiites have a right and both of us have committed many atrocities in the name of that right. I will not delete your comments but please try to think a little less sectarain - My 2 best friends were Shiite and I loved them the most.
I assume the third anon is the same as the first anon. I'll refer to you as anon1, feel free to refer to me as anon2.
The foot of Maliki is worth the whole filthy bedouin tribe of Saddam. Did Maliki authorize his armed forces to go destroy all of Tikrit (as your hero 'baba Saddam' did to the holy city of Karbala i 1991)? No, he didn't (unfortunately).
Maliki is not even worth my spit, not even my 'afteh.
Saddam is not my hero, although he's definitely very brave.
Get used to it, the new Iraq is going to be dominated by Shia and Kurds
Get used to what? huh?
What?
Are you saying you like Iraq the way it is?
People like you are disgusting.
Again, your letting your emotion and sectarian bias get in the way of facts. The facts on the ground are clear: the filthy Sunni Arab community hasn't suffered 1% of the amount of oppression as have the Shia and Kurds.
Dude, people like you with this vengence, this deep grudge .. this blak "hiqid" .. this thing that I can't describe, that would let people feel happy in a sadistic way while torturing others.
Listen, you may have your way now, but in the end, even if you dominate in this life, there's always "il-aakhira", and you (and everyone of us) should ponder upon this thought.
Kid:
The problem is that neither you nor me are willing to compensate a bit of our emotions for the good of the overall picture - a united Iraq.
I knew it, you still love Iraq, don't you? :D
The problem is that even if you consider him to be your comrad, he'll only consider you to be the "enemy of ahl-il-beet"
First I will respond to kid,
Last Anon...
Hey, for some reason i think you were the same hard-line Shiite who visited us at some parts.
Your instinct is correct. Mabrook.
Before I begin my critique, I want to point out that I remember you telling me a while back that you're the type that admires Iyad Jamaledin and Mithal Alusi. Now I see you glorfiying 'baba Saddam' the utmost coward. Don't you see any contradiction in your proclaimed stances, considering Mithal Alusi and Iyad Jamaledin have supported the trial and execution of the scumbag Saddam 100%?
I think that your anger is justified at the Saddam's symapthy, but try to think about it for a second: Everything that happened to Saddam was made public, while all the things that happened to Shiites and Kurds did not.
I'm not quite getting what you're trying to say. What exactly happened to Saddam? Are you speaking of the trial?
As for the Shia and Kurds, I think it's safe to say that the atrocities inflicted on them have been made public, though I think not enough. There needs to be much more awareness and publicity (eg musuems, documentaries, etc,...) regarding the plight of the righteous martyrs from Dujail, Karbala, Najaf, Madinat al Thawra, Basra, etc...Basically all the Shia and Kurdish areas.
Perhaps this event has shown really how much did the rift go between Sunnis and Shiites - The problem is that neither you nor me are willing to compensate a bit of our emotions for the good of the overall picture - a united Iraq.
Well the Shia themselves didn't start any retaliatory attacks until early 2005 and it didn't escalate until after Samarra.
So for the first 2 1/2 to 3 years, the Shia did sacrifice their anger and emotions for the sake of a "united" Iraq. It seems as though there wasn't any reciprocation.
Both Sunnis and Shiites have a right and both of us have committed many atrocities in the name of that right.
There is action and reaction. I'll leave it to you to figure out who started the action and who reacted.
I will not delete your comments
Oh thank you! Wallah I don't care if you delete them or not. In fact, my main purpose in posting was to let you, and all others who now glorify the now expired piece of waste Saddam al Tikriti, that there is no place for such mentalities in the new Iraq.
We fought 35 years (1400, if you want to get technical) to rid ourselves of this Sunni Arab chauvinistic superiority mentality, and inshAllah there will never ever ever be a return of it.
but please try to think a little less sectarain -
Your supposed to be a "moderate," yet you admitt that you used to love Dhari (the "al Qaeda is a component of the resistance" Dhari) and now you call Saddam al nathil al Tikriti, the most coward of all human being who ran into a rat hole, a "brave man." Then you wonder why I react the way I do. Go figure..
My 2 best friends were Shiite and I loved them the most.
Allah yerhamoon.
Now, as for anon2:
Maliki is not even worth my spit, not even my 'afteh.
I would expect that comment from someone who glorifies Saddam the coward. Saddam is in hell, Sunni Arabs are out power, and yes (my favorite part), Maliki, Jafari, Hakim, and the rest of the crew from Sciri, Dawa, and co. are ruling Iraq. Get used to it. If you can't rough fil aal Ordoon ma'aa ba'ayet il baathiyeenil sunna il jarab.
Saddam is not my hero, although he's definitely very brave.
LMAO...wallah into il sunna ma and'kun aya fikra aan il butaal.
"Brave"? Allow me to laugh one more time... (hahahahahaha).
Ok I'm done (for now..)...so brave that he resorted to massacring thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians, so brave that he was too scared to sleep in one bed for more than 2 nights in a row, so brave that he forced women and children to act as his human shields, and my favorite, so brave that instead of fighting, he ran and hid in a rat hole... Smallah shoo "brave" hatha il gawad.
Get used to what?
That the new Iraq is going to be a Shia and Kurdish dominated Iraq.
huh?
That the new Iraq is going to be a Shia and Kurdish dominated Iraq.
What?
That the new Iraq is going to be a Shia and Kurdish dominated Iraq.
Are you saying you like Iraq the way it is?
I don't like the fact that the Sunni Arab sectarian scum are wreaking havoc on the country. However, they will be taken care of in due time, inshAllah.
People like you are disgusting.
LMAO ok Mr. 'hiding in a rat hole and massacring innocent civilians amounts to bravery' You shouldn't throw stones when your house is made of glass.
Dude, people like you with this vengence, this deep grudge ..
Like "dude," you praising the biggest coward in history as "brave," and your mad that I have a grude, "dude"? Haha shoo bednaa in'sawi feekun ya ami.
this blak "hiqid" .. this thing that I can't describe, that would let people feel happy in a sadistic way while torturing others.
Kind of like Saddam the coward felt when he was torturing the innocent Shias rounded. Please, spare me your nonsense.
Listen, you may have your way now, but in the end, even if you dominate in this life, there's always "il-aakhira", and you (and everyone of us) should ponder upon this thought.
Hahaha, again you dont' cease to amuse me. First you praise the worst genocidal maniac the 21st century has seen, then you want to start talking about the "akhira."
*sigh* aaah the never ending hypocrisy that comes from such people.
The problem is that even if you consider him to be your comrad, he'll only consider you to be the "enemy of ahl-il-beet"
Yes, because glorifying the coward of cowards ibn kalb il nathil al Tikriti abu il gahba Saddam is the best way to offer an olive branch in favor of a "united" Iraq. Get real.
Anon1, Do you realize how stupid you sound, praising Sadr on one hand, and OTOH, expressing disgust for those who praise Saddam?
Your praising your scum openly, while I don't recall reading anyone here praising Saddam openly. We all agree that he is a criminal and deserves to be executed.
Very big difference.
Lak you guys are so exposed to the whole world, the whole world sees you naked now, only you think you have your clothes on.
و الله الناس كلهة كامت تحتقركم.
ok, not the whole world, but all the people who were fooled by the khumaini propaganda.
and yes (my favorite part), Maliki, Jafari, Hakim, and the rest of the crew from Sciri, Dawa, and co. are ruling Iraq. Get used to it.
هاي هي المصيبة
As long as you're in this mentality, no good will come for Iraq.
I don't know how your mullas managed to plant this whole crap in your head, but know, and let it be known, and let the world hear:
FACT: the majority of generals in the Iraqi army in Saddam's era were shia.
FACT: more than 30 people among the 52 "deck cards" are shia.
FACT: Saddam hit hard on everyone who opposed his regime, regardless of sect.
FACT: All sunni clerics denounce attacks on shia civilians publicly, while almost none of the shia clerics do the vice versa.
FACT: Iraq now is much worse than under Saddam.
FACT: Iraq under the rule of shia parties is much worse than under the rule of Allawi.
Anon1, Do you realize how stupid you sound, praising Sadr on one hand, and OTOH, expressing disgust for those who praise Saddam?
When did I praise Sadr ya akhlal gawwad? Show me where? Please.
Typical jarab scum, making up lies without backing it up. Eskoot ya kalb! Address my points instead of rambling on and on. I addressed each of the bullshit poinbts you brought up yet you haven't addressed mine. Kalb ibn kalb abid Saddam al nathil al jaban al tikriti.
Your praising your scum openly, while I don't recall reading anyone here praising Saddam openly. We all agree that he is a criminal and deserves to be executed.
Ish hala ilit inno Saddam il jaban howa "brave"!? Mala kazaab ou kalb intaa! Address my counter points to your ridiculous praising!
Very big difference.
Ok, address the points I made earlier.
Lak you guys are so exposed to the whole world, the whole world sees you naked now, only you think you have your clothes on.
Lak khul khara ya ibn kalb! Ma andaak aya sharaf izaa b'timdaah bi saddam il tikriti il manyooch! You haven't addressed any of my points and you come here rambling off on a tangent talking nonsense!
ok, not the whole world, but all the people who were fooled by the khumaini propaganda.
Wtf does Khomeini have to do with this? You sectarian pigs have to bring up something to do with Iran everytime Shia are mentioned! Well guess what, as much as I hate the Iranian government (mainly because the propagate the scum Palestinian cause) I would much rather be ruled not just by Persian, but by anyone else other than your like: whether they be Israelis, Buddhists, Japanese, ayaa wahad bas ashkal kum. Million Israeli walaa Tikriti!
هاي هي المصيبة
As long as you're in this mentality, no good will come for Iraq.
I don't know how your mullas managed to plant this whole crap in your head, but know, and let it be known, and let the world hear:
Coming from someone who praises a coward who hid in a rathole as "brave," your criticism comes off as a bit rich. I don't need "mullahs" to tell me anything, the facts on the ground speak for themselves. Especially cowards like you who praise the most scum of tyrants!
FACT: the majority of generals in the Iraqi army in Saddam's era were shia.
Wrong. The majority of the Republican Guard were Sunni Arabs, as was the leadership calling the shots.
FACT: more than 30 people among the 52 "deck cards" are shia.
Fact: The overwhelming majority of Shia voted for anti-Baathist figures, while the overwhelming majority of Sunni Arabs voted for al Qaeda-sympathisizing terrorist leaning figures.
FACT: Saddam hit hard on everyone who opposed his regime, regardless of sect.
LMAO wallah inta ma'aandak walaa mukh! I have yet to see the mass graves in Tikrit. Please spare me your bullshit. Wallah everything Badr allegedly did to your types isn't enough ya awlad nathil!
FACT: All sunni clerics denounce attacks on shia civilians publicly, while almost none of the shia clerics do the vice versa.
Hahahaha...wow you keep proving yourself to be an inept idiot. Yes, the same types of denounce the attacks on Shia such as Dhari, who called al qaeda a "component of the resistance." Your full of shit. You have no credibility whatsoever. It would be wise for you to address my points rather than to make up nonexistant bullshit.
FACT: Iraq now is much worse than under Saddam.
Of course you think that since your "brave" hero 'baba Saddam' was sent to hell. If you don't like the new Iraq, then don't ever come to it, because the new Iraq doesn't want you anyway.
FACT: Iraq under the rule of shia parties is much worse than under the rule of Allawi.
What does that have to do with the idiot Saddam? Anjaad ibni izaa ma feek address my points one by one, then shut the fuck up and don't talk.
Now I'm going to list the points I have made, and which you haven't addressed, and hope that you comply with my requests:
1.) You referred to Saddam al nathil ibn kalb as "brave." However, I previously pointed out the discrepancies between your allegations and whats on the record. I would greatly appreciate your response.
2.) You claimed Saddam hit out equally at all sects, however, yet again, the facts on the ground prove otherwise. I haven't heard of any mass graves in Anbar or Tikrit, or any destroyed infrastructure. Neither have I heard of chemical attakcs in such areas. Please address this contradiction.
Now if you don't plan on addressing these points, don't waste my time. Also, again I will remind you that Saddam is in hell (alhamdulilah ya Rab!) and Sunni Arabs are out of power and will never be able to rule Iraq and exploit the oil wealth and resources of the Shia and Kurds for their own sectarian chavinistic benefits. Ef'aaa ya abu Saddam il kalb il Tikriti!
8:03 PM
Hey, dude!
What's been up?!
Happy new year and all then...
I purposefully avoided replying to everything you said, because that's not the I believe dialogs are supposed to be run.
I'd rather address your general points than nit-pick words out of your posts.
You clearly speak with the mentality that "Hey sunni fuckers, your rule is gone, your ruler is in hell, now we are ruling, live with it or leave the country because it's ours, not yours!", and somehow you think that you have a just cause backing you up.
To reply to that notion, I told already that Saddam wasn't sectarian.
Pretending to be oppressed is a part of your culture, since eternity your mullahs mourn and teach how to perform latmiyat and blaming sunnis for all the atrocities in history, in a very irrational way.
For example, when talking about the war between Ali and Moawiah, you make it sound as if it was between sunni and shia, when infact the official position of the sunna is that Ali was the one who was right side in that war.
Your mullas teach you that the sunnis killed Husien, despite the fact that sunnis consider him to be the best of the youth of heaven. سيد شباب الجنة.
Plus the fact that history tells us it was the shia who betrayed Al-Husein and killed him.
In the same mentality your mullas teach you that Saddam's rule was an oppression against the shia by the sunnis. (which is totally irrational, btw).
And some how, Saddam was made to be the devilest devil in all history and somehow, miraclously, his death is a revenge for all the ahl-il-beet since Ali until baqir-il-hakim. (as if baqir-il-hakim is one of ahl-il-beet!!)
It's all just irrational propaganda.
So my friend, try to look at it from a different perspective for a second.
You talk about destroying Karbalaa and the such, so let me ask you, when did that happen? 1991, right?
Ok, why did it happen? and why didn't it happen before??
Suppose a Kurdish came to you in 1990 and asked you "Hey, Why didn't Saddam kill you Arabs like he killed us Kurds????". How would you answer?
Do you consider that to be a logical argument for saying that the massacre of Halabja was a massacre by the Arabs against the Kurds, or by the shiites against the kurds?
You claim that Saddam ruled Iraq in a sectarian way because he oppressed the 1991 events which happened in the shitte area.
Well, guess what, if those events happened in sunni areas he would've done the same thing.
It has nothing to do with sectarianism, it's ruling a country with an iron fist.
From a political perspective, Saddam was protecting the state. A different ruler would've either
1- Done the same thing.
2- Lost his rule.
Saddam chose to do #1.
It has nothing to do with the fact that the rebels were shia or sunnis, the only relevant matter in this case is the rebellion itself.
This is easily backed up by plenty of instances were Saddam reacted ruthlessly to sunnis who opposed his rule.
Plus for example, the fact that he forced both sunnis and shia to send their kids in the war on Iran.
Or how about the fact that no where in his speeches nor anywhere in the official media was there any sense of sectarian rhetoric.
As for Saddam being brave, well, that's true, can you deny that it's very hard for most people to face death like he did? Even an above-average hero could crumble in a situation like that, but Saddam didn't.
The term used here (braveness) should be taken without any positive or negative connotations that might usually be associated with such word. One could be evil and brave, just because he's brave doesn't mean that he's doing it for a just cause.
Anon1...
Do you know why I hate Iraq, it's because of people like you? Sunnis AND Shiites, you are simply so brainwashed by your own respective sect's demonization of the other sect - I have heard this countless times from people in my family and friends, and the differnce is now through this brilliant intenret I get to hear it from the other side. I am sure you are as nice as my brainwahed parents are in your real life, but I am afraid that people like you cannot change. I have given up on that inside my own circle. You keep trying to insult me as if I supported Saddam, I never did - For some reason you focus on my saying that Saddam was brave, and you neglect that i said that I hate Saddam more than all the other people there combined - and that I wanted him to die. When you say stuff like 'Wilid il kalb il sunna', please remember that you may have lost many friends by such generalizations - I will not do the same because I am sure there are many Shiites who are open-minded and have not yet degenerated into this destructive pattern of thinking. I have read Shiism and I don't approve of it, I even think it's funny in some places, but I never disrespected it or its followers - you have the right to exercise your own freedom of religion in as much as I do, as long as you don't hurt me.
You have just proved what I said, that none of the two sects are as willing to forgive the other guy's mistakes...yes Saddam's era of injustice and tyranny was over, but now begin a new, possibly even darker era. Many people who support Saddam, only do so because they lament the fact that there was no sectarainism then, while I think this is wrong, Saddam contributed to growing sectarain feelings, but the new stupid leaders only added fuel to the fire, they did not know how to contain that feeling.
I wish you peace and happiness. But If you continue to talk with insults and curses then I must let you know that you are not welcome here. You should also note that in general I am a rude, vulgar person, but I respect you because you are an Iraqi, in as much as I hate the identification of Iraq, I feel sorry for the people who have been massacred, physically or emotionally, under its banner.
I purposefully avoided replying to everything you said, because that's not the I believe dialogs are supposed to be run.
You praise Saddam, then I point out the flaws in your logic, then you deny praising Saddam only to hint that you were. And now you want to lecture me on running a dialogue. LOL please..
I'd rather address your general points than nit-pick words out of your posts.
You were nitpicking out of my post.
You clearly speak with the mentality that "Hey sunni fuckers, your rule is gone, your ruler is in hell, now we are ruling, live with it or leave the country because it's ours, not yours!", and somehow you think that you have a just cause backing you up.
I speak with that mentality towards Saddam sympathisizers, such as yourself. Unfortunately, it seems that most of the Sunni Arab community has your mentality, though I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Nonetheless, my concerns are very justified given the history of oppression towards Shia by mentalities such as yours.
To reply to that notion, I told already that Saddam wasn't sectarian.
And I already debunked that false talking point. Get real, such statements are a joke and you know it. If that were the case, Sunni Arabs like you wouldn't be mourning the loss of their "brave" leader.
Pretending to be oppressed is a part of your culture, since eternity your mullahs mourn and teach how to perform latmiyat and blaming sunnis for all the atrocities in history, in a very irrational way.
Excuse me? Pretending to be oppressed?! I suggest you read up on a little history before you make such ignorant, baseless, pathetic statements!
For example, when talking about the war between Ali and Moawiah, you make it sound as if it was between sunni and shia, when infact the official position of the sunna is that Ali was the one who was right side in that war.
Your mullas teach you that the sunnis killed Husien, despite the fact that sunnis consider him to be the best of the youth of heaven. سيد شباب الجنة.
Plus the fact that history tells us it was the shia who betrayed Al-Husein and killed him.
Ok, thanks for the pointless monologue. Now tell me, what exactly does this have to do with our topic? Did I bring up the struggle between Imam Ali(AS) and Muawiyah (la)? Please, stick to the topic at hand instead of making up pointless hypotheticals that have no basis in this conversation.
In the same mentality your mullas teach you that Saddam's rule was an oppression against the shia by the sunnis. (which is totally irrational, btw).
Wow! Just when I think your comments can't get any more ignorant...you surprise me again. Sunni Arab oppression of Shia is a fact, please go educate yourself on the dynamics of the Shia-Sunni relationship throughout history, specifically within Iraq. Anjaad inta ma'aandak walaa mukh.
And some how, Saddam was made to be the devilest devil in all history and somehow, miraclously, his death is a revenge for all the ahl-il-beet since Ali until baqir-il-hakim. (as if baqir-il-hakim is one of ahl-il-beet!!)
Here you are making fun of the Shia religion and playing down the tyranny of the ibn kalb Saddam, and you expect to be treated with respect in the new Iraq. Anjaad do us all a favor and go to hell, and take all those who like you with you too.
It's all just irrational propaganda.
So my friend, try to look at it from a different perspective for a second.
LOL talk about hypocrisy... Ok Mr. "Shia have never been oppressed and all the preach is lies."
You talk about destroying Karbalaa and the such, so let me ask you, when did that happen? 1991, right?
Ok, why did it happen? and why didn't it happen before??
Actually, the Ashura commemorations were banned since 1979 in Karbala. Religious freedom for the Shia was severly curtailed. Did you expect the Shia to be treated like second class citizens and say "thank you" in return to their scum Tikriti rulers? The righteous martyrs of 1991 were fighting for the most noble of goals: freedom, religious expression, to get rid of tyranny, etc...and you downplay all of this. Well, too bad, because history will remember those martyrs as one million times more noble than the scum Sunni Arab scum from Anbar and Salahedin who made a living off of killing children.
Suppose a Kurdish came to you in 1990 and asked you "Hey, Why didn't Saddam kill you Arabs like he killed us Kurds????". How would you answer?
Do you consider that to be a logical argument for saying that the massacre of Halabja was a massacre by the Arabs against the Kurds, or by the shiites against the kurds?
Ok more with the pointless hypotheticals which have nothing to do with this. Stick to the topic.
You claim that Saddam ruled Iraq in a sectarian way because he oppressed the 1991 events which happened in the shitte area.
Well, guess what, if those events happened in sunni areas he would've done the same thing.
Well, guess what? Those events would've never happened in the Sunni areas because the they have no reason to uprise. You must be watching too much old Baath party propaganda, because your logic is so flawed I can't even begin to set you straight.
It has nothing to do with sectarianism, it's ruling a country with an iron fist.
From a political perspective, Saddam was protecting the state. A different ruler would've either
1- Done the same thing.
2- Lost his rule.
Saddam chose to do #1.
It has nothing to do with the fact that the rebels were shia or sunnis, the only relevant matter in this case is the rebellion itself.
Read my above comments regarding this. The Shia were deliberately targetted and undermined and that's a historical fact. If you can't accept it, well, I don't care.
This is easily backed up by plenty of instances were Saddam reacted ruthlessly to sunnis who opposed his rule.
Plus for example, the fact that he forced both sunnis and shia to send their kids in the war on Iran.
It's well known that the Shia made up the bulk of the infantry in the Iran-Iraq war. I remember an interview being conducted with a defected Baath general who once claimed that the scum Uday nce made a group of Shia soldiers march into a mine field to clear it for his own purposes. Uday then told the general that it didn't matter because they were Shia and would "be raised to be loyal to Iran anyway."
Just to give you a taste of the Sunni Arab ruling mindset in the hopes that you will see the illogic in your argument. However, I'm not expecting much progress.
Or how about the fact that no where in his speeches nor anywhere in the official media was there any sense of sectarian rhetoric.
Actions speak louder than words.
As for Saddam being brave, well, that's true, can you deny that it's very hard for most people to face death like he did? Even an above-average hero could crumble in a situation like that, but Saddam didn't.
The term used here (braveness) should be taken without any positive or negative connotations that might usually be associated with such word. One could be evil and brave, just because he's brave doesn't mean that he's doing it for a just cause.
This is why there is such resentment towards the Sunni Arab community, if this is the prevailing mindset. Your idea of "brave" is someone who hides in a rat hole rather than fight, someone who is too scared to sleep in one bed, someone who slaughters innocent women and children who pose no threat to him, etc...the list of his cowardice goes on and on...but I don't expect you to believe any of them since it would be disrespectful of your "hero."
I will respond to kid's comments shortly.
Anon1...
Do you know why I hate Iraq, it's because of people like you? Sunnis AND Shiites, you are simply so brainwashed by your own respective sect's demonization of the other sect - I have heard this countless times from people in my family and friends, and the differnce is now through this brilliant intenret I get to hear it from the other side. I am sure you are as nice as my brainwahed parents are in your real life, but I am afraid that people like you cannot change. I have given up on that inside my own circle. You keep trying to insult me as if I supported Saddam, I never did - For some reason you focus on my saying that Saddam was brave, and you neglect that i said that I hate Saddam more than all the other people there combined - and that I wanted him to die. When you say stuff like 'Wilid il kalb il sunna', please remember that you may have lost many friends by such generalizations - I will not do the same because I am sure there are many Shiites who are open-minded and have not yet degenerated into this destructive pattern of thinking. I have read Shiism and I don't approve of it, I even think it's funny in some places, but I never disrespected it or its followers - you have the right to exercise your own freedom of religion in as much as I do, as long as you don't hurt me.
I am a result of years of Sunni Arab oppression inflicted on Shia. Believe me, even until Saddam al nathil fell, most Shia did reach out to Sunni Arabs and hold out olive branches. But after 3 years of countless bombings and slaughter, enough is enough.
Also, I don't consider myself to be "brainwashed." I know that there are at least a few Sunnis who don't like Saddam (and it seems as though even those few regard him as "brave"). However, their intentions, however good they allegedly are, haven't materialized. I haven't seen any elected Sunni Arab officials with popular support forcefully denounce attacks on Shia civilians. I'm afraid the facts on the ground are clear: although they may be some Sunni Arabs who don't follow this despicable mindset, the overwhelming majority do, as evident by the officials they elect/support such as Dhari, Mutlak, Hashimi, Ullayan, etc...
You have just proved what I said, that none of the two sects are as willing to forgive the other guy's mistakes...yes Saddam's era of injustice and tyranny was over, but now begin a new, possibly even darker era. Many people who support Saddam, only do so because they lament the fact that there was no sectarainism then, while I think this is wrong, Saddam contributed to growing sectarain feelings, but the new stupid leaders only added fuel to the fire, they did not know how to contain that feeling.
I'm not in favor of a "united" Iraq. I advocate a form of highly decentralized federalism where each region, meaning Shia and Kurdish regions by default, get ALL of their oil. I'm not totally sold on the idea of all out seperation, mainly for practical reasons, however I do find it interesting.
I wish you peace and happiness. But If you continue to talk with insults and curses then I must let you know that you are not welcome here. You should also note that in general I am a rude, vulgar person, but I respect you because you are an Iraqi, in as much as I hate the identification of Iraq, I feel sorry for the people who have been massacred, physically or emotionally, under its banner.
Your wishes of peace and happiness are appreciated. However, your threat of not being "welcome" will not do much to deterr me from voicing my opinion, and in fact, to be honest, I'd much rather be on the bad side of someone who praises Saddam as "brave" than on the good side.
Nonetheless, I want to return to your assertion that you don't like Saddam. While that may be true, you should realize that by saying Saddam is "brave," despite the countless evidence which suggests otherwise, you are only reinforcing Shia suspicions that most (if not all) Sunni Arabs love Saddam, and if not love (as allegedly in your case), then at the very least respect him and prefer him to being ruled by Shia.
I also hope you consider the aspects of Saddam's reign so as to go some ways into debunking your view of the scum as "brave." I have listed some, but there are many other cases.
Also, I still would like to know how you can claim to be more a Iyad Jamaledin and Mithal Alusi "guy," as you put it, when everything you have just propagated goes against their positions. Cheers
Also, I just want to point out that, contrary to your implications, I have nothing against the core beliefs of Sunni Islam. I could care less whether they combine their prayers or not, or whether they pray to frogs.
Rather, my resentment towards the Sunni Arab community stems from a political standpoint. Like I mentioned above, I'm sure there are Sunni Arabs who don't support the likes of Ullayan and Dhari, however, everything indicates that the majority of the community does, unfortunately.
Well, like I already said, you support Hakim and Sadr, so you don't have any right to blame anyone for supporting Saddam.
Your logic, btw, is really really weak. I'm not saying this to convince you, just to let you know.
I'll give you an example. Allawi is shia, but he wasn't sectarian. I hate him, and I think he's a criminal, or as most people put it, he's a little Saddam without a mustach.
He destroyed Fallujah (well, the Americans did, but it happened under his rule), and I hate him for that, but I wouldn't say that he is sectarian.
Now, at this point, if I were like you, I'd accuse myself of "praising" Allawi.
But no, I'm not praising him, I'm just trying to be objective.
I hate him, yes, but I'd rather he ruled Iraq than the likes of Hakim and Sadr.
The reason that he attacked Fallujah wasn't because he's a shiitti who hates sunnis; the reasons were purely political, the "sect" aspect of it is not involved in the case at all.
Now, back to your arguments, you say Saddam treated shia as second class citizens!!! As if sunnis were treated as first class citizens!!
I remember in Baghdad, back in the day, we went to schools, and there were both sunni and shia kids, same for teachers, same for taxi drivers, same for employees, same for everything. I don't ever remember that there was a place were sunnis can't go to because they are sunnis or a place that the shia can't go to because they were shia. I don't remember ever that a person would be asked for his sect before appointing him to any position.
I know very well that there are alot of shia that made it to very high positions in the Bath party.
As for Saddam forbidding you from doing your Ashura marches, well, again, it's only a political decision; dictators don't allow public marches in high scale because they can cause instability to their rule.
Anyway, I don't really think you'll change your mind; I'm only writing this for the neutral outsiders who don't know what's going on, and who'd be reading this and taking our debate here as an important source of information about the sectarian tension in Iraq.
anon2...
u'r in many points right, but I must say there are a great deal of Sunnis today who are just as pigheaded and stubborn, and that's the big problem. Some people will always say that we are the angels and the other guys are the devils, but they're both human - and they have to see that. THe people like you and me are a scared silent majority who don't do shit, just standing around waiting to get killed. and this is why I have to hate Iraq.
Kid:
Yes I know. This whole mess started because extremists from both sides pushed towards the civil war from the start. Then shit happened and people became afraid and started to look for refuge in their sect.
I know for fact that many many fighters on both sides .. their reason for fighting is not religious hatred towards the other sect, but rather t3sub towards one's own sectarian identity/community.
I don't really know who was the first to start it, I think it was started by both sides of extremism at the same time.
Mabrook Saddam's dead now :)
what a bunch of bigoted cunts. you dont deserve a country. You even seem educated yet spew such bigoted hatred, what hope is there for your country? maybe you will do the world a favor and kill yourselves. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
Well, like I already said, you support Hakim and Sadr, so you don't have any right to blame anyone for supporting Saddam.
Again, you're dodging my previous question, when did I support Moqtada?
Your logic, btw, is really really weak. I'm not saying this to convince you, just to let you know.
LOL ok Mr. 'Saddam is brave yet I refuse to provide any examples to show how.' Also, speaking of logic (or lack theoref), I have yet to hear your reply concerning why Sunni Arabs never revolted against Sadda, yet the remaining 80% of the country did.
I'll give you an example. Allawi is shia, but he wasn't sectarian. I hate him, and I think he's a criminal, or as most people put it, he's a little Saddam without a mustach.
He destroyed Fallujah (well, the Americans did, but it happened under his rule), and I hate him for that, but I wouldn't say that he is sectarian.
Ok, nice example. You say you hate Allawi because he went after Fallujah (one good thing he did) yet you try to hold him up as an example. Also, keep in mind Allawi isn't very representative of the Shia community. Say, if he were to die today, I don't think many people would mourn him as the Sunni Arabs are doing with the ibn kalb Saddam.
Now, at this point, if I were like you, I'd accuse myself of "praising" Allawi.
But no, I'm not praising him, I'm just trying to be objective.
Ok but I still haven't seen your rebuttal of the perfectly valid points I brought up regarding Saddam's evident cowardice. It would be wise for you to address them.
I hate him, yes, but I'd rather he ruled Iraq than the likes of Hakim and Sadr.
The reason that he attacked Fallujah wasn't because he's a shiitti who hates sunnis; the reasons were purely political, the "sect" aspect of it is not involved in the case at all.
That doesn't change the fact that Saddam treated Sunni Arabs much better than he treated Shia and Kurds. If you don't see all the overwhelming evidence which points to this, then I don't know what to tell you.
Now, back to your arguments, you say Saddam treated shia as second class citizens!!! As if sunnis were treated as first class citizens!!
Sunni Arabs were given the top jobs, the best land, and overall preferential treatment. It's a fact, you can whine all day against such statements, but nothing will change that fact.
I remember in Baghdad, back in the day, we went to schools, and there were both sunni and shia kids, same for teachers, same for taxi drivers, same for employees, same for everything. I don't ever remember that there was a place were sunnis can't go to because they are sunnis or a place that the shia can't go to because they were shia. I don't remember ever that a person would be asked for his sect before appointing him to any position.
You don't usually have to ask for someone's sect to figure out what they are. Surely you should know this.
I know very well that there are alot of shia that made it to very high positions in the Bath party.
There may have been many Shia who worked in low level positions within the Baath party, however, the fact remains that the top leadership was Sunni Arab.
Also, please explain to me why places like Karbala, Najaf, and Basra, which are in the oil rich south, were much worse off than place like Tikrit and Ramadi, which lie on barren desert?
This time, instead of going off on a pointless tangent, do actually address my question.
As for Saddam forbidding you from doing your Ashura marches, well, again, it's only a political decision; dictators don't allow public marches in high scale because they can cause instability to their rule.
Your argument there is weak. Did you expect the Shia to just go along with such tyrannical policies? If so, go read soem history, because you're in for a surprise.
It's not only Ashura, Saddam populated the southern towns surrounding Baghdad with Wahhabis so as to stifle the influence of Shiism. The official government Eid was on Sunni days. There was an overall policy of discrimination against all things Shia.
Anyway, I don't really think you'll change your mind; I'm only writing this for the neutral outsiders who don't know what's going on, and who'd be reading this and taking our debate here as an important source of information about the sectarian tension in Iraq.
Well, considering you're a person who praises Saddam the coward as "brave," while at the same time refusing to address my points which show otherwise, I don't expect much from you either.
If you plan on responding, at least address my points instead of going off on a tangent. If you're not going to do that, then don't waste my time.
Kid,
I have yet to read your response regarding the contradiction in your alleged preference of politicians such as Jamaledin and Alusi, while at the same time taking into account your current post. I believe this is the third time I requested this. If you don't want to answer, then just say so, no one is forcing you too :)
Man, this conversation is amazing! Almost like it's being orchestrated by the people who want to see Iraq split into 3 parts so it can never be a power (military or economic) or threat to its neighbors again. That's the recipe for being occupied forever.
By the way, the way Sadam was killed looked like they were trying to make him into a martyr: breaking tradition and the constitution by killing him on Eid? Filming him facing death bravely (yes, Bravely) with no hood .--With a bunch of sectarians chanting Muktada Was that unpurpose or just stupid?
to the anon above,
Iraq was an artificial state created by the British in the 1920s that grouped together three groups with differing agendas/aspirations under the leadership of a minority.
We should all stop pretending that we are "united" under one banner with no differences, because everyone knows thats bullshit.
A very interesting article, thank you, Kid.
To the Anons 1 and 2:
Have you ever thought about being (ab)used again? This time directly from US-Politicians (plus accomplices).
Anon 1: You sound as if you were an israeli/us agitator, trying to fuel sectarian hatred. You say, you would prefer living under israeli rule: Do you believe the IDF would treat you any different from their treatment of the Palestinians?
How ridiculous!
What's happening in Iraq now is exactly the same as in Gaza, israeli style destruction of a people:
"Do America and Israel want the Middle East engulfed by civil war?
Jonathan Cook, The Electronic Initfada, 19 December 2006"
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6272.shtml
I really hope that Iraq bears up all the violence that has been brought there and will achieve building up a state that deserves to be called a good place to live. For all Iraqis.
A simple check of statistics would do well to repudiate your thinking. Israel hasn't inflicted 1% of the damage on the Arab world as Saddam ibn il Kalb has on the Iraqi people.
Although I realize that conflicts with the heroic images you have in your head of Palestinian terrorists throwing stones at the demonic Israeli soldiers, but that's the reality.
If Israel did to the Palestinians what Saddam did to the Shia, then there wouldn't be any Palestinians left. Seriously, go read up on the statistics before making such statements.
Why is this anti-Sunni Iraqi guy posting comments in a Syrian/Lebanese accent??
"dude", I noticed that too. Maybe he went to Lebanon for military training by Hizbullah?! I hear it happens.
Wow... what an interesting bigot this anonymous turbaned mofo! as i was reading his comments, i started giggling because i thought he was trying to be funny.. Delving deeper i realised he's not a comedian, he's just a stupid banana.
I'm actually half Lebanese. And no, I hate Hezbollah, as I do any organization that propagates the Palestinian "cause," especially a "Shia" one.
In any case, it's good to see that I can bring up logical, well argued points and expect to recieve the same in return. Then again, one can't come to expect much logic from Sunni Arabs who praise Saddam ibn il kalb who's in hell as "brave."
Face it folks, Saddam al Tikriti (funny how "Tikriti" in itself has become an insult nowadays") is dead and rotting in hell, and there's nothing you, Dhari, Mutlak, bin Laden, or anyone can do about it. Alaa ib'aal kul il Arab il Sunna illi yimdaahu ou yibchoon alaa il Tikriti bin kalb.
Dear maze,
I see your parents have raised you in such an intellectual manner that you find it in yourself to reply to people's arguments in such a persuasive manner with no insults made.
One, it's none of your business ya abu il jarab what my heritage is.
Two, before you start making comments against Shia as "turban trash," please go and evaluate the circumstances of your Sunni jarab trash whose leaders thus far have been notorious for bending over backwards while trying to maintain some level of dignity ("Kings" Abdullahs of "Saudi" Arabia and Jordan, and khusni Mubarak of Egypt) and presiding over rats in some run down village on the edge of Shitrik.
Three, as far as your accusation of me not being in an Arab country, that's a bit rich coming from a cber jihadi like you who wouldn't dare make such anti-Shia statements as "turban trash" in Madinat al Thawra of Karbala.
Maybe you could prove me wrong and go on some voyage to these "turban trash" areas and videotape yourself publicly making such statements. But then again, I assume you reserve your anti-Shia commentary for the cyber world so as to follow in the footsteps of the "bravery" your hero 'baba Saddam' abu il sunna il jarab exhibited during his lifetime.
Four, I have made many logical points in my previous posts regarding the build up to the current Shia mindset including, but not limited to, 35 years of Sunni Arab oppression, the 1991 uprising and its aftermath, the first 3 years of relentless anti-Shia attacks, the hypocrisy of the Sunni Arab world, etc...
Since you have enlighted me thus far with sophisticated comments such as "half leb milkshake gone ,bad..." and "turban trash," maybe you could continue your oh so educating streak of thoughtfull responses and reply in a logical manner to the points I have made (irony intended). Cheers :)
Hi guys,
I got a question: I read in a german blog, that more than half of Saddam's government were Shiites (or do you say Shia in English?). Is that true?
If someone of you understands German, the text is here:
http://taz.de/blogs/datenscheich/2007/01/02/neues-jahr-neues-spiel/#comments
And if that's true: Why do you, Anon2, act as if it were only Sunni people, who were involved?
The hole paragraph is:
"Nur warum wird das heute so aufgefaßt? Bestand nicht der größte Teil seiner Regierung aus Shiiten? Haben nicht erst die Amerikaner und ihre irakischen Marionetten dafür gesorgt, daß durch permanente Radio-Reden, Fernsehkommentare und Zeitungsartikel auch dem letzten Iraker klar gemacht wurde, daß Saddam als Personifizierung des sunnitischen Widerstands gegen die Besatzung zu gelten hat? Nur durch diese beständige Betonung in der amerikanischen Kriegspropaganda repräsentiert Saddam heute alle sunnitischen Araber."
http://taz.de/blogs/datenscheich/2007/01/02/neues-jahr-neues-spiel/#comments
English:
[...] But why is it seen like this today? Didn't the biggest part of his (Saddam's) government consisted of Shiites? Didn't Americans and their Iraqi puppets in the first place made sure that it is seen like this by radio-speeches, TV commentaries and print articles, so that every Iraqi understood that it is Saddam, who is considered to be as the personification of the sunni resistance? Only by this continuing propaganda of war Saddam today is representing all sunni Arabs.
Sorry, if my English is not good enough, but I think it is at least understandable. I hope.
Do you agree with this description/opinion?
PS: Anon2: I still believe you are either American or Israeli. As you speak Arabic, I guess, you are one of those Mistaravims, usually based in Lebanon to agitate over there. Are you proud of your job...? Or do you still cry because your children-killing army wasn't able to win a war against Hizbollah? Something different, when soldiers have to fight against armed people instead of shooting at nearly defenseless ghetto-inhabitants, no?
L.
When you said "anon2", did you actually mean the half lebanese anonymous? cuz you're not making sense.
Anyway, a question for the mehdi-army-die-hard anonymous: what is it that you hate so much about the 618 front? they're a friking political front, not an armed militia.
Uh, sorry, you're right, I meant him.
Could you tell me, if it's true that a lot of Shiites (or must I say Shia?) were part of the government of Hussein?
Yes, I already affirmed that in my "discussion" with him.
Thank you.
And is this guy's (anon1) view typical for the view most shiites have?
And what do you think about the reason for this attitude? Is it kind of "normal" developement (as a kind of scapegoat in a self-excusing way) or do you think that this view was brought to the Iraqi people by american-british propaganda?
Sorry for asking so much stupid questions(because I think, I already know the answer), but over here in Germany we get a lot of superficial reports, telling mainly the story, that the Bush administration wants to be told. I just want to make sure, I'm not wrong.
L.
It's true though - Saddam's regime did murder innocent Sunna, but the vast majority of their victims were Shia and Kurds.
On the deck of cards, also true that many of them were Shia. But the top brass were a bunch of khenefsan from the tahara of Tikrit!
Kid, you have a lot of wisdom and street smarts for one so young.
I can only repeat here my well thought out response to Saddam's execution. I posted it once on Asterism ~ but I find it also appropriate for you.
While contemplating Saddam's execution; it came to me that there must be a "down in the dirt, real, unchangable, basic reason" he was executed. I found three reasons.
The first reason was to slap ALL the Muslims in the face. Saddam was the ONLY Muslim leader who would stand up against the Israelis and the US. Both the US and the Israelis wanted a Smack Down ~ to show the Muslim World that they are far superior and will not tolerate any opposition to their plans to Dominate the region, the oil fields, and all the resources (water, food, land, etc.)
The second reason (for Saddam's execution) was to Enrage the Muslim Population into action; to bring out ANY Muslims willing to actually fight. Yes, I know, ALL Muslims are enraged ~ that they are constantly Smacked Down by the Israelis and the US. They see the power of Arab Oil being used to build insanely rich nations far from them ~ while the Arab masses live in abject poverty. They see their wimpy Arab leaders tolerate the Smack Down every day ~ never making a stand to say "enough of this sh*t." I'm trying to get to the point ~ only a handful of Muslims are willing to fight (none of them Arab Leaders), and those are the ones the Smack Down is intended to bring out; because that leads to the Third Reason for Saddam's execution . . .
The Third Reason is The Trap. The Smack Down is intended to bring that handful of fighters (those inside AND those outside Iraq) into a position to be destroyed by what the Bush Regime calls A Troop Surge on it's way to Iraq. The Smack Down was intended to get that handful of dedicated Muslims (the ones who finally say "enough of this sh*t") worked up into a Kill-or-Be-Killed mood. The intent is to get them all into a small enough area where they can all be wiped out at once. I wonder if the Muslims are gonna fall for this ploy??
Spare Iraq,
Ron
12 of the 14 coup d'etat attempts against Saddam were made by Sunnis .. did anyone know that?
السنة عملوا اثنعش محاولة انقلاب على صدام بينما الشيعة سووا اثنين فقط.
Maze,
I'm not going to spend too much time dignifying your bullshit, as it would be beneath even the dirtiest dog in the poorest section of Sadr city. I can tell you, though, that regardless of what you say, Saddam al nathil abu il jarab is dead and there is no way in hell your type will regain power.
You can go on insulting me in a pointless fashion while failing to make an meaningful points, and I will just set back and laugh at your intellect, or lack theoref.
As for Fallujah, wait until the US troops leave since they have been the protectors of such scum, even though the Sunni Arab terrorists uncouthed bedu were the first to fight the US troops who liberated Iraq from their hero 'baba Saddam,' now they are turning around like the rats they are and begging for protection. In any case, inshAllah there will be a US policy change soon which doesn't appese terrorists, then you'll see what will happen to such places as Fallujah. Better stack up on the tissue boxes and start writing more vulgar responses to use in the cyber world, it might lift your self esteem a little.
As for the 618 terrorist list, you anon2 are either ignorant or just plain naive if you think they don't have a militia. Last I checked, it was personalities from this terrorist ridden block that kept insinuating Shias were Persians, and being apologetic (sometimes even justifying) terrorist attacks on Shia. Oh, and wasn't it the head bodyguard of Adnan al kalb Dulaimi who was implicated in a plot to bomb the Green Zone. In any case, the day of these people will come so they can rejoin their idol in hell. Alaa ib'aalkum ya habayib Saddam al Tikriti.
P.S. Mr. Maze, I'm not tense at all as you're comments aren't worth the feces of a camel in the shithole of Anbar. However, do get some therapy as you seem shaken by the new order in Iraq. Oh, and lest I forget, cheers :)
As for the 618 terrorist list, you anon2 are either ignorant or just plain naive if you think they don't have a militia.
Well then consider me an ignorant and enlighten me please!!
Last I checked, it was personalities from this terrorist ridden block that kept insinuating Shias were Persians, and being apologetic (sometimes even justifying) terrorist attacks on Shia.
when did they ever justify terrorist attacks? give me a concrete example please.
Oh, and wasn't it the head bodyguard of Adnan al kalb Dulaimi who was implicated in a plot to bomb the Green Zone.
huh? lemme guess, you read that @ burathanews.com?
Dude, if that's the case, why aren't the Americans catching him, since it's the "Green Zone", you know.
I know why think the 618 are terrorists and have militia; that's because you know that your own bloc (555) are terrorists and have militia, so you think everyone else is like that.
---
Also, it's funny how you claim that Americans are protecting the Sunni militias who attack them!! There goes your logic :)
Matter of fact, the shitte militias deliberately avoid clashes with Americans because they know they don't stand a chance. Meanwhile, the Americans use those militias to punish the Sunni community for harboring the resistance.
If there's to be a new strategy (assuming this talk is real and not propaganda bullshit) then this strategy should be focused on fixing things by regaining balance in the state and gov't institutions and declaring a time table of real actions that should lead to stabilizing the situation then withdrawing occupation forces from the country.
I think that's the kind of "middle ground" that both Iraqis and Americans would accept, which would grant the unity/stability of the country and allow the Americans to keep the "water of their face" with a withdraw plan that won't seem like "losing to terrorists".
At least, I think that's what Tariq Al-Hashimi tried to tell Bush.
Kid,
You're being hammered, propagandized and used by the Occupation Troops stationed in The Green Zone. Your site is being fed dis-information daily: which are lies of deceit, by ONE OF THEIR BEST PSY-OPS (psychological Operations) STAFF PEOPLE.
I had no idea how important you've become. I gotta hand it to you Kid: PSY-OPS ONLY ATTACKS THOSE THEY FEAR and only uses those with a wide audience.
I can help you return their favor, if you want, because I've found a way to use them to plant reverse psy-ops traps. I only say I'll help if you want because there is a progression: that takes the perpetrators (the psy-ops personnel): from anxious, through headaches, through childhood regression, through parental domination, into their worst fears, into nightmares and finally drags them all the way into insanity.
Not a pretty picture: but keep in mind that the intent of ALL PSY-OPS PERSONNEL is to convince Iraqis to KILL Iraqis. The psy-ops have not hesitated to destroy Iraq completely and won't blink at killing anyone who stands between them and your oil. In fact, by posting this information here, psy-ops now knows one of their own is fed up with the killing and turned: so now my head is on the block right along with the Iraqis. What the hell: I didn't want to live forever any way.
I'll check back.
Well then consider me an ignorant and enlighten me please!!
Will do!
when did they ever justify terrorist attacks? give me a concrete example please.
Here's an example... the last commemoration of the death of Imam Musa al Kathem (AS). Shia pilgrims were fired upon by presumably Sunni Arab snipers on their way to Kathimiya, with 20 of them being martyred.
The piece of expired crap Adnan Dulaimi justified it by saying there were "militiamen" within the crowd firing at Sunni Arab areas, which was completely unfounded.
Not only did he not condemn attacks on the Shia, but he rationalized them!
Here's a quote from Juan Cole regarding this incident:
"Dulaimi's speech is looked upon as a mere diversionary tactic by the Sunni Arab side. If so, how enraging-- to have your people shot down in reality but to people attempt to offset that with rumors of imaginary injuries to the other side."
http://www.juancole.com/2006/08/shiite-reaction-to-massacre-blame-on.html
huh? lemme guess, you read that @ burathanews.com?
No, I'm sorry burathanews isn't up to the level of legitimacy and objectivity as iraqrabita is. Maybe someday buratha will advance to such a level where they realize, as iraqrabita does, that in the end, all blame relies of the "Safawis" and the "Zionists."
Dude, if that's the case, why aren't the Americans catching him, since it's the "Green Zone", you know.
"Dude," relax "dude," sources outside of the evil Safawi propaganda bastion of buratha picked up this story. Where have you been "dude" ? Check it out dude!
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/01/MNGGCLG70M1.DTL
I know why think the 618 are terrorists and have militia; that's because you know that your own bloc (555) are terrorists and have militia, so you think everyone else is like that.
Yes, they are the innocent ones who are merely defending themselves since they have been so victimized by the conpiratorial trio of Iran, the US, and Israel. Poor them!
It's not because they have senior figures who openly state that Shia aren't the majority in Iraq (Khalaf Ullayan), or who state that Iraq would be nothing "without Sunnis" (Adnan Dulaimi), thus reflecting an unwillingness to adjust to the new status quo and return to the pre-liberation status quo.
Also, it's funny how you claim that Americans are protecting the Sunni militias who attack them!! There goes your logic :)
Well, seeing as you were unaware that Adnan Dulaimi's head bodyguard was involved in a plot to bomb the Green Zone, and instead placed the blame on what you percieve to be a Shia propaganda source, I didn't expect you to keep up with the facts on the ground.
In fact, Sunni leaders are telling their "mujahideen" to always fire on police if they enter Sunni areas, UNLESS they are accompanied by American troops, which just goes to show the hypocrisy of these people.
Lest you blame this fact on buratha too, here's a link:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/16/news/sunni.php
Enjoy :)
Matter of fact, the shitte militias deliberately avoid clashes with Americans because they know they don't stand a chance.
Well, it's only the Mahdi Army who has previously clashed with the US. In an "uprising" that was condemned by the whole Shia leadership at the time. The other Shia "militia," Badr, has actually been working with US forces to rid the country of terrorists, terrorists which are supported by the 618 list.
The reason for the surge in popularity of the Mahdi Army in Baghdad (not in the south, but Baghdad) is because elements within it have been fighting the true enemy: Sunni Arab terrorists.
The Mahdi Army didn't become popular in Baghdad for "fighting" the US forces, they became popular for being percieved as defending Shia areas from Sunni terrorists.
Meanwhile, the Americans use those militias to punish the Sunni community for harboring the resistance.
LOOL, yes and part of that plan is for the Pentagon to label the Mahdi Army the biggest "security threat" to Iraq. Another part of that plan is for US embassy officials to put enormous pressure on Maliki to disband the "militias." Great logic! :)
If there's to be a new strategy (assuming this talk is real and not propaganda bullshit) then this strategy should be focused on fixing things by regaining balance in the state and gov't institutions and declaring a time table of real actions that should lead to stabilizing the situation then withdrawing occupation forces from the country.
I think that's the kind of "middle ground" that both Iraqis and Americans would accept, which would grant the unity/stability of the country and allow the Americans to keep the "water of their face" with a withdraw plan that won't seem like "losing to terrorists".
At least, I think that's what Tariq Al-Hashimi tried to tell Bush.
The problem is there can't be a "real strategy," when there is pressure on the 555 list to appease terrorist sympathizers such as 618. The only solution for Iraq is to decimate the terrorists.
Then, the Shia armed will gradually lose support from the people since they will be viewed as useless in the absence of Sunni Arab terrorist attacks.
However, no strategy can be implemented when you have one of the top figures of the 618 list (Adnan Dulaimi) going to Istanbul and praising the "resistance," warning about the threat of Shias and Shiism, asking for help in fighting the Shia, and my favorite, claiming that Iraq would be nothing "without Sunnis." (which is such a laughable statement in itself)
Again, here's a link before you try and discredit this fact.
https://ssl47.pair.com/isafetyn/preview.php/post/598/Duleimi_Iraqs_Most_Sectarian_Politician
Again, enjoy :) Cheers.
So, this is what I gather from you:
- All Shia were against the mehdi army when it fought the Americans
- All Shia in Baghdad praise the mehdi army for fighting sunnis
- The real enemy of the shia are the sunnis.
- You see no place for any middle ground.
And, what exactly do you expect the Sunni reaction to be?
I see you've all of a sudden become silent regarding the "innocence" of the 618 list. I also see you've become silent regarding the hypocrisy of the terrorist scum "resistance."
I hope you enjoyed those links, as they hadn't been tainted with the majoosi zionist propaganda of burathanews. :)
It's not like I can't debunk your (very weak) arguments or anything .. I'm just trying not to waste my time.
Umm maybe I'm late for this discussion but I have a suggestion for the Lebonese guy:
Why don't you be a good Lebonese and get a rhinoplasty for your big bigoted nose?
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