Friday, March 14, 2008

Christians in Iraq

the Chaldean Archbishop is found dead. I don't understand what would al-Qaeda gain from attacking Christians, a politically marginalized minority that is even not very united itself ; it seems their only plan is to cause strife between communities and piss everybody off ; the Wikipedia page does mention that the Archbishop was a bit vocal about announcing his objection to the growing fundamentalism of the country, which might have caused this tragic incident. Regardless, this is not the first Christian figure killed in Mosul, Theocracy is bad, bad, bad for you.
The Christian community in Iraq is divided between two ethnicities: Chaldean and Assyrians, within Iraq's new reality, the two has been lumped together as Chaldo-Assyrian by Jalal Talabani, but it doesn't seem they have much in common aside from religion, I had a Chlaldean friend who was vehemently opposed to this categorization, and he told me that they consider Assyrians "dirty." I was actually quite surprised since most of the Christians I know looked really open-minded and secular. Most of my other Christian friends are Assyrian, including my friend Ninos who was kille d in 2006 and in general, most of the Christians I've met favor Saddam Hussein, in their eyes, all that matters is that he was a secular who cracked down on all forms of theocracy, their natural oppressor. It seems to me that this sentiment was born out of long periods of tensions under Ottoman rule, I also think that the Christians of Syria [mostly Assyrians] also support al-Assad's minority pesudo-Shia Alawite secular dictatorship for the same reason.
Since we're talking about Christians in Iraq, look at this report about the Jesus-Camp missionary maniacs in Iraq, I've never heard of such a thing before in Iraq, I guess they didn't succeed much.
*To support my argument that there's a sizable Christian support for Saddam, Here's an Iraqi poetry set to music by famous Iraqi Christian composer Ra'id George, it's made by a Christian Group calling itself Suqoor Talkif (Hawks of Talkif - Talkif is a majority-Christian area in Ninewa) in which they insult Hakim, Muqtada and Sistani. (offensive), even though most of the tensions Christians in Iraq have is between them and Sunni Muslims, many Christians I know (incl. this song) doesn't seem to view the Shia theocracy as anything better, my Chaldean friend used to tell me how his father was insulted as a 'najis' [unclean] in Amara, a southern province.
*Here's an Iraqi Shia Rap Group's response to this song. [extremely crass and offensive]
*YouTube Tribute to the Archbishop.
*The usually friendly Iraqi Christian blogger Marshmallow26 reacts in a great post angrily to the murder, this post is a good example of how old religious tensions corrupts the friendship and harmony of co-existence. Amazing, she proves two of my above-mentioned points : she lets out her frustration about ugly Muslim-Christian tensions in Mosul and her respect for Saddam Hussein (both I wrote about above), this post is a great example of how people are left wondering which is real: the hostility, or the friendship? This is why religious rule is bad anywhere on this Earth ; it highlights hostilities and sooner or later this is what you get, the only way forward is to kill organized religion once and for all.
****
In other news, my blog has been counted #3 on a Channel4 article: 10 Iraqi Blogs You Should Read, after Zeyad and Iraqi Blog Count, the latter I co-edit.

50 comments:

Anonymous said...

the englisch love sell outs, congrats for qualifyin.

CMAR II said...

the englisch love sell outs, congrats for qualifyin.

Hmmm...look who's a sell-out now!

Actually, I think rating Zeyad's above your blog is totally unfair. Zeyad's blog is barely active and when he does post he doesn't put the passion and introspection into them that you do.

That "Jesus-camp" news report reminds me of the treatment of Christians in "secular" Turkey. If Christians from another country go to a church, then the church is labeled "a nest of spies". If someone choose to become a Christian and his decision can be traced to another Christian look out! because that someone is going to pay. In short, its almost as bad as blatant theocracy itself.

Part of turning one's back on theocracy means letting people choose their own religion based on whatever reason and not demonizing or jailing people or assassinating family members when they choose one over another.

RhusLancia said...

They may have targeted him because of the headlines it would generate. That's essentially why they target marketplaces, too. It may be nothing personal against the guy (or against individual veggie or pet shoppers), but they want the "spectacular" headlines.

Muhannad said...

or maybe they just wanted money.

Anonymous said...

I am an Iraqi christian and I do NOT like Saddam Hussien and many christian I know hate Saddam too. But we hate Al-Qaida and the other fanatics. We are actually not politically united but we all hate Al-Qaida.
And Most importantly we do NOT hate muslims. We have lived together for many many years, but some fanatics are trynig to divide iraqies. We hate the fanatics, WE DO NOT HATE MUSLIMS.

RhusLancia said...

Yeah, Zeyad doesn't post enough of his own stuff anymore to be #1. He should be moved to fourth and everyone else bumped up a step, then swapped with Mojo for tenth. That'd put us on the podium. Yeah, baby!

abbas hayawan said...

.....

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

...fanatics are trynig to divide iraqies.

That's it in a nutshell. Doesn't matter what name you call them by, secular(I don't care what anyone says, Saddam wasn't a moderate man), theocratic etc., it's the fact that they are fanatics that is the problem.

Jeffrey said...

Zeyad belongs to that first group of Iraqi bloggers (See "Let's Catch a Wave" for an Iraqi Bloggers timeline). Up to his arrival in the US, Zeyad had been a hard-working blogger that engaged his readers in a number of topics. But today, probably due to relocation to the US and simple burnout, his blog is now moribund, and his comments page has been taken over by monkeys and rodents (got cheese?). Hats off to Zeyad, though, for several years of excellent blogging. His place in the history of the Iraqi blogosphere is assured, but today there's no question that Abbas here is tackling all the hard issues on a regular basis and deserves to be placed above Zeyad.

Iraqi Bloggers Central is an excellent source for those who follow the Iraqi blogosphere, but we are not Iraqi bloggers. We are, however, devoted to disseminating and discussing what we find that is blogworthy from day to day in the Iraqi blogosphere.

As an adjunct to the Iraqi blogosphere, we at Iraqi Bloggers Central do not, in fact, compete with the Iraqi bloggers. We do, however, compete with Iraq Blog Count, a valued adversary and from whom we have learned about new blogs. While most of the original editors at Iraq Blog Count no longer contribute, Abbas still updates that blog from time to time.

Having said all that, I agree with RhusLancia. Let's campaign to get Zeyad demoted and then Iraqi Bloggers Central can stand on the podium and raise our black-gloved fist in the air (1968 Olympics, anyone?) and shout:

Blog Power!

*

Abbas Hawazin said...

abbas hayawan...

it doesn't even rhyme...how about abbas hawaech?

CMAR II said...

Have you seen this, Abbas? A documentary about the Iraqi heavy metal band, Acrassicauda.

nadia n said...

I've definitely noticed a perception, among people that don't know much about Iraq, that all Christians are neocons and collaborators. It doesn't really surprise me much the AQ would think so as well.

RhusLancia said...

AQ calls Christians "cross worshippers" and calls the MNF "crusaders". They've been trying to make the war look like a war of the US vs Islam, and them as Islam's protectors. The US has gone out of its way to show that isn't the case.

nadia n said...

Fascinating.

Don Cox said...

" Let's campaign to get Zeyad demoted "____Better to campaign to get him to post more often.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

abbas hayawan...

it doesn't even rhyme...how about abbas hawaech?


Maybe a haiku?

A/bbas hay/a/wan

5 syllables. Need 2 more lines though...

Now where did that dang Nir Rosen piece go? I know it was around here somewhere...

Marshmallow26 said...

Hello Abbas,

Thanks for your supportive post...that made my day :|

God bless

Shylock said...

Good Post AK!
however, it has a good percentage of Hambaluric acid (Hambala)!!!

You will soon change your attitude

nadia n said...

I've definitely noticed a perception, among people that don't know much about Iraq, that all Christians are neocons and collaborators.

>:[

Anonymous said...

Man I hate Sunnis so bad. When will America leave, so Sayed Muqtada can deal with you nawasib?

Anonymous said...

just look at how the Sunnis are spinning this in their own favor (caution: Zeyad's favorite website, sectarian wahabi site): 76news.net

Mayssam said...

I felt so sad about the murder , didn't think they would kill him , may he rest in peace. I just heard that 40 iraqis were killed in kerbala , i wonder how many will react to that piece of news.
Its really sad to know that many iraqis think that Saddam era was good or at least better than now , it shows that many iraqis have learnt little of our ordeal , you too Abbas think it was ok under Saddam , I wonder why
Is there a connection between the increase in number of female suicide attackers and sexual repression ? How many male companions will the female martyre get in paradise? 72? or half may be?
Abbas , I also think your blog is alot better than Ziad's , it has heart , i keep wondering why ziad and Bendy got all that attention and promotion .

Muhannad said...

I guess even women can be Wahhabi or Wahhabi influenced. They convinced her that killing a bunch of Shia would result in her ascension to heaven.

Muhannad said...

I was wondering if As'ad Abu Khalil has ever condemned a suicide bombing like he condemns the killing of Palestinians, so I did a search of suicide bombing on Angry Arab. He did quote an article (most of his posts are quotes) that said half of suicide bombers have been Saudi. I was also pleasantly surprised that he stated his opposition to suicide bombings on July 4, 2007, which I do not recall reading until now.

Anonymous said...

no, the mahdi army probably drilled her son's head and burnt his face with acid, so she was convinced that she was taking his revenge. ok now shitheads, inundate me with the "sunnis started it first" crap.

Anonymous said...

muhannad zainy do you also ever wonder why your head is so far up your ass.

Anonymous said...

and mayssam you moron, how has your "ordeal" improved now? what is "better" in your definition? what has your shia government done to address or reverse your so called "ordeal"? or is it just the fact that you guys can now beat your chests to oblivion and crawl to karbala and cut open babies heads for hussein every few days that makes you so happy now to bend over to americans?

Iraqi Mojo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Abbas:

Why do single out only organized religion for your scorn? Isn't the real culprit the universal human tendency of most groups or individuals that attain political power to monopolize it without compromise or tolerance for dissent. I would suggest to you that oppression by secular idealogues has been far more deadly than religious opression in the past century.

For example, Pol Pot's rigidity and persceution of percieved enemies lead to many millions of deaths and wide spread famine in Cambodia. Lenin's forced collectivization program resulted in the starvation of millions of Russians. Stalin's periodic progroms of alleged "traitors" killed millions. Hitler not only systematically exterminated millions of jews, but similar numbers of poles, slavs, homosexuals, the infirm and the handicapped.

Isn't it really intolerance itself, the inability to see the others point of view, shares the spoils of political control, respect the rule of law, compromise, tolerate loyal dissent, that is much of the problem?

Turning back to the specifics of the Iraqi situation, from an outsiders perspective, the bloody inter-Iraqi fight for political control makes perfect sense since Iraq has little tradition of peaceful, democratic tranfers of power and since those who can grab power now will likely control most of Iraq's wealth for a very long time to come. This is, in part, because there are insufficient alternatives to government sector jobs due to the weakness of Iraq's private business sector and because it seems that most Iraqis believe that whatever government is in power when the US leaves (or draws down considerably) will consolidate its control and will rule without compromise until deposed by the next Iraqi coup or rebellion. This makes it appear to outsiders that Iraqi politics is really a zero-sum game for total control played by rival politicians where religion is little more than a tool for whipping up popular support.
Mark-In-Chi-Town

Anonymous said...

This makes it appear to outsiders that Iraqi politics is really a zero-sum game for total control played by rival politicians where religion is little more than a tool for whipping up popular support.


excellent point Mark-In-Chi-Town. it sinks nicely w/your point about religous extremists on 24's 'Take a Right. Go Right!' thread. i left you a comment there btw.

abbas, it always pains me when i hear of beloved religious leaders assasinated but it is all too common. immediately i think of romero cut down during a sermon and the priest rounded up in another south american country and slaughtered.

only after the freedom of information act and congressional hearings did we find out the source of the assasins. unfortunately the school of the americans has played trained to many right wing assasins to carry out these missions, so we ask ourselves, what is to gain?

if it was in fact AQ, what do they have in common with others thruout history attacking people who are beloved religious leaders.

it wounds whole communities. the case in latin america w/the cia assasinated priests was used to rally the people against the opposition who was blamed for the offense. although w/romero it was connected to his support of the socialist anti authoritarian government. raely tho do i think it is actually directed at the person himself, more for the psychological effect of the communities sympathies.

it is very sad, these are people who can heal iraq, and they are gone forever. who benefits. so sad.

annie

Anonymous said...

that was supposed to say 'rarely tho do i think it is actually directed at the person himself'.

nadia n said...

This makes it appear to outsiders that Iraqi politics is really a zero-sum game for total control played by rival politicians where religion is little more than a tool for whipping up popular support.

Then, likewise, can't you read the anti-religious sentiment here as an expression of disgust with that kind of propaganda?

In the abstract of course I agree with you, but he doesn't live in the former soviet union or east asia, so I don't think where the sentiment comes from is much of a mystery. Nobody lives in a vacuum, after all.

Anonymous said...

Nadia:

The point is that nearly any idealogy, whether religious or secular, can be perverted to justify intolerance, oppression and even political violence, if its application to the real world is not leavened with a sense of humility and an appreciation of human fallibility. It is often the rigidity and certitude in application of an idealogy which, in my view, leads to many of the inhumane abuses by groups in power. Political and religious tolerance, in my experience, often flows from understanding that human beings and their political and social systems are all imperfect and imperfectable. This does not mean that one should not work to improve oneself or to work for social changes one believes will be valuable, but that all such action should be undertaken with a healthy respect for opposing views.

I realize that Abbas is reacting to religious propoganda that often passes for politics in Iraq. However, this does not mean that all orgnaized religion should be abolished in Iraq or anywhere else, but rather the oppurtunists that use religion as a political tool should be exposed and opposed by political means. IMHO, advocating the abolition of organized religion is counter-productive since it simply alienates the sincerely religious who view such messages as personal attacks on their faith.

I am all for secular government since theocratic governments seem more prone to the idealogical rigidity and certitude that often lead to political oppression. But, that does not mean that rigidly idealogical secular governments cannot be equally as oppressive, immoral, and, at least in the last century, far more militarly aggressive. After all, both Hitler's Nazism and Mussolini's National Fascism were primarily secular, nationalist political movements.

Mark-In-Chi-Town

annie said...

he oppurtunists that use religion as a political tool should be exposed and opposed by political means.

and who were the opportunists who promoted religious zealots into power in iraq? who was it that invaded a secular country and abolished the secular party? who was it that promoted dividing people by sect? who has been promoting separate regions divided by sect?

why, the opportunists of course. and i agree, they should be exposed and opposed... by any means.

ultimately we are there to divide the middle east into small segregated regions divided by religion. for this reason religion and the religious must be empowered.

it leads to extremism which is promoted until it becomes the predominant reality. once it becomes the reality, which it has, it is no longer a strawman, it is the enemy and justifies it's expulsion. a circular nightmare we have created for our survival and continued presence in iraq.

nadia n said...

I realize that Abbas is reacting to religious propoganda that often passes for politics in Iraq. However, this does not mean that all orgnaized religion should be abolished in Iraq or anywhere else, but rather the oppurtunists that use religion as a political tool should be exposed and opposed by political means. IMHO, advocating the abolition of organized religion is counter-productive since it simply alienates the sincerely religious who view such messages as personal attacks on their faith.

I agree on principle, but I don't think he was calling for a total abolishment of organized religion, just a mitigation of their role. Unless you had another post or comment he made in mind. I don't think, it's just a matter of oppourtunists but any mix of religious or ethnic nationalism and politics. so long as you have that mix, those who do not fit into that identity are going to be in a difficult position.

Anonymous said...

I don't think he was calling for a total abolishment of organized religion

me neither obviously, arguing against this is a cinch/strawman usually riddled thruout propagandist's arguments.

nadia n said...

Oh well that wasn't really obvious, I thought the point of your comments was to try to convince kid that that wasn't the answer.

Anonymous said...

Annie and Nadia:

The 3:330 a.m. post was not mine as you seem to have assumed.

Abbas wrote: "This is why religious rule is bad anywhere on this Earth ; it highlights hostilities and sooner or later this is what you get, the only way forward is to kill organized religion once and for all."

Perhpas, Abbas was speaking metaphorically as you suggest, but given the anti-religious tenor of a number of his recent posting, I doubt it. The phrase "kill all organized religion once and for all" seems pretty unambiguous to me. Why don't one of your two ask Abbas directly if you think you are correct?

Annie: To the extent the US has exploited sectarian difference for its own political purposes, it should be exposed and condemned. However, if you read any of Abbas' recent posts, you will see that he believes those sectarian tensions had always existed just beneath the surface in Iraq. I don't get the sense he believes the Americans created those tensions as you imply.

Further, your assertion that the US is manipulating events to prolong its role in this war ignore its substantial costs, which are born by all tax payers. Please run a cost benefit analysis of the Iraq invasion. The salient data is that well over 400 Billion US$ has been spent with a current burn rate of about 11 Billion US$ per month. To put that in context, Iraq's annual oil exports even with last year's high prices were about 70 Billion. It would have been a heck of a lot cheaper to buy oil from Saddam in perpituity than invade and occupy.

Please don't bore me with "it was all done for the benefit of Haliburton, KSR, etc. conspiracy theories." No corporation or group of businesses has that kind of political pull. That is not to say that those contractors weren't thrilled with the business oppurtunity presented by the war, but to suggest that they were able to bribe enough politicians in both the House and Senate to vote for the war and then to continue it indefinitely solely for their own benefit is just plain silliness.

Mark-In-Chi-Town

nadia n said...

I never said metaphorical, I saidt I thought it was reactionary to the current circumstances, as I've seen him go through changes like that a couple of years ago as well.

I never assumed anything about him, I'm just saying I wouldn't necesarily take this statement at face value the same way you are. Why would I ask him when, he's not answering you right now either. He's fully capable of speaking for himself, and he just said he wants to write a post on it eventually so I'm not too worried. Really, there's no need to bust out the sassmouth.

OK there's more than one kind of evil and hatred in this world, I get it, I think he does too, that's all I was trying to say.

nadia n said...

ANYWAYS I wasn't trying to put words in his mouth, sorry if it came off that way at all.

nadia n said...

I don't get the sense he believes the Americans created those tensions as you imply.

Promoting sectarianism and sectarian differences and creating them are pretty different things, the first opne is still pretty bad.
I also don't really understand why you're bringing up a strawman conspiracy re: Halliburton into this thread when no one else brought it up?

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